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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 189 (165309)
12-05-2004 6:03 AM


Dark Matter
Crash:
You make it sound like dark matter is just non-luminous regular matter. I think the ship has sailed on the "perhaps that extra matter is just normal dust etc." idea. Dark matter supposedly acounts for what... 70% of the mass of the universe? So it has to be something more exotic.
Apparently it has mass and is affected by gravity but it doesn't interact with either normal matter or itself.
Purple:
I think you should start a seperate thread on relativity. When you claim to be science minded and then say you don't beleve in realativity you are bound to raise some hackels.
Why do you think dark matter is going to expalin ghosts? All the evedence seems to suggest that dark matter doesn't interact with itself so how could anything be made out of it? It's like saying that ghosts could be made out of gas! But even creatures made out of gas are more plausable than beings made out of dark matter. At least gas molecules interact with other gas molecules. Particles of dark matter DON'T interact with other particles of dark matter (or at least it appears to be that way).
Just becase we don't understand dark matter doesn't mean that it is a sutable explanation for mystical things. So far the only connection between the two is that they can both pass through matter. This is not enough correlation, in my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:35 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 122 of 189 (165366)
12-05-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by crashfrog
12-05-2004 2:51 AM


definitions
Crash
No offense taken.
"Youko" is a japanese fox spirit as opposed to "Yoko" as in John Lennon's wife
My avatar is actually a color-modified version of Kurama from Yuyu Hakusho (anime and manga)
Must admit that he does look a bit feminine as do many such anime males.
anyway back to the point here.
There's no "gap in science" that we ad-hocced dark matter to fill. We detect it, quite plainly, from its demonstratable gravitational effect on the galaxy.
I would like to paraphrase this as "we detect something quite plainly from its demonstrable gravitational effect on the galaxy"
Dark matter is a postulation to explain that effect. It may or may not be the actual reason, depending on how loose your definition of dark matter actually is.
Why would "psychic energy" have gravity? If it had such a powerful force that it could hold the galaxy together, then why does the "psychic energy" conviniently evaporate in laboratory settings?
Didn't say it did have gravity, only that it could (if it indeed existed) have a similar effect on matter as gravity does.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 12-05-2004 2:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2004 1:42 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 123 of 189 (165367)
12-05-2004 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by The Dread Dormammu
12-05-2004 6:03 AM


Re: Dark Matter
Dormamu
I think you should start a seperate thread on relativity. When you claim to be science minded and then say you don't beleve in realativity you are bound to raise some hackels.
Yes it would wouldn't it? That is my entire point. Very very few people really understand it and yet everybody jumps on the band wagon to defend it whenever anybody suggests that any part of it may be incorrect.
I'm not at all sure if this website is even the place to be debating relativity though. besides which, I will be out of my depth when it comes to the pure mathematical definition of the system. I am an Analytical Chemist, not a mathmatician. I just like to question everything that I don't understand until I do understand it instead of taking it on "faith"
Why do you think dark matter is going to expalin ghosts?
I didn't actually suggest that it would. DM is just an example of something else which has not been proved to exist and yet is blindly accepted. There are other possible explanations for its effects just as there are other possible explanations for ghosts and apparitions etc. other than "you are nuts and imagining stuff!"
Just becase we don't understand dark matter doesn't mean that it is a sutable explanation for mystical things. So far the only connection between the two is that they can both pass through matter. This is not enough correlation, in my opinion.
Completely agreed. There very probably is no connection at all. I just used DM (which incidentally was brought up by another poster initially) as an analogy.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-05-2004 6:03 AM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-06-2004 3:57 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 124 of 189 (165375)
12-05-2004 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by lfen
12-04-2004 4:53 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Ifen
The proof of a scientific theory is not that the explanation makes sense to me, or to you, but that the theory holds up to the scrutiny of peers. I don't understand the math so I take the consensus of physists who can do the math.
I don't understand all the math either but I can think of other possible ways to explain Einstein's observations. (And these ways are not anything to do with spooks or unknown forces.) I will keep an open mind until all the predictions made by general relativity are proven to be accurate. Some are really not yet testable. we can't yet travel at any speed that allows us to fully test it all. Let's wait and see eh?.
Your statements here increase my skepticism about your observations. I think that what you experienced was if not sourced and least heavily modified by your beliefs.
Again, exactly the expected response. Anybody who goes even slightly against accepted wisdom to even suggest something new, is treated with ridicule. Very few people (myself included) fully understand relativity or any number of branches of science. However, huge amounts of people accept it at face value instead of delving into it to attempt to fully understand it all.
That is "faith" isn't it?
You are also attempting to tie me to a "beleif" system that biases my opinions. You couldn't be further from the truth. I don't "beleive" anything, to my knowledge. Neither do I "know" anything. I am searching for answers to "everything" and the further my search goes the less I trust the "answers" that I get. I am probably more skeptical than most in this respect.
Why should my unwillingness to just "accept" other people's postulations make my own observations any less reliable? I want to find out for myself.
PY
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by lfen, posted 12-04-2004 4:53 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-05-2004 1:58 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 126 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 3:02 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 129 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 4:33 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 156 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-08-2004 3:57 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 189 (165377)
12-05-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PurpleYouko
12-05-2004 1:53 PM


Which parts of GR are still untested?
TTBOMK, many if not most of the predictions of GR have been tested and one of the last remaining is being tested as we speak. Which prediction or predictions were you saying are yet untested?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:53 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 9:00 AM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 126 of 189 (165393)
12-05-2004 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PurpleYouko
12-05-2004 1:53 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
we can't yet travel at any speed that allows us to fully test it all. Let's wait and see eh?.
People have not traveled at near light velocities, but the observations of particles accelerated to near light velocities appear to have confirmed the predictions. There is wait and see involved in most activities from planting a garden to theoretical physics, so?
However, huge amounts of people accept it at face value instead of delving into it to attempt to fully understand it all.
That is "faith" isn't it?
This is a provional faith subject to confirmation. If it's necessary for me to distinguish this from the sort of faith that leads YEC'ers to cook up wildly distorted theories of science to preserve the bibical account of Genesis let me know and I will try.
You are also attempting to tie me to a "beleif" system that biases my opinions. You couldn't be further from the truth. I don't "beleive" anything, to my knowledge. Neither do I "know" anything.
Not "A" belief system, but I don't think the brain can function with out some biases and beliefs though not necessarily conscious. I am suggesting that you need to investigate your brain function as well.
I suggest an odd but interesting little book that touches on your interests in "supernatural" and "suspending belief":
The secret oral teachings in Tibetan Buddhist sects
Author: David-Neel, Alexandra, 1868-1969.
Publisher, Date: San Francisco : City Lights Books, c1967.
ISBN: 0872860124 (pbk) - Description: 128 p. ports. 19 cm.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:53 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 3:59 PM lfen has replied
 Message 133 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 9:04 AM lfen has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 127 of 189 (165416)
12-05-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by lfen
12-05-2004 3:02 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Hi Ifen, forgive my interuption. This is a thread with many issues, and interesting ones. I have a silly question as usual.
People have not traveled at near light velocities, but the observations of particles accelerated to near light velocities appear to have confirmed the predictions. There is wait and see involved in most activities from planting a garden to theoretical physics, so?
I thought that Einstein said that an infinite amount of energy would be needed to accelerate anything to light speed? I could have remembered wrongly, as my knowledge is nilch on the matter. But nevertheless, I thought it had been proved when a star shifted position next to the sun, and light had been bent, showing that space/time is warped by gravity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 3:02 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 4:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 128 of 189 (165435)
12-05-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by mike the wiz
12-05-2004 3:59 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
That was why I said "near light". I don't recall the exact figures now but I think they have come close to 99% of the speed of light and have observed increase in mass and time dilation.
And yes the observations of the deviation of starlight as it passed by the sun measured during an eclipse is taken as proof of the distortion of space time. Though in the future other theories may emerge to explain this.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 3:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 129 of 189 (165436)
12-05-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PurpleYouko
12-05-2004 1:53 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
PY,
I think the important difference is that something like general relativity makes predictions that can be observed by any number of people. And it has made quite a few (einstein cross, correctly predicting mercury's strange orbit, etc.).
The problem with others accepting what you say is that it's not predictable, and it's not something that (at our knowledge of the subject so far) they themselves can choose to observe. The physics is observable by vision (telescope( and by math--two subjects we're all familiar with, and that we have faith that others can do them very accurately.
I definitely wouldn't dismiss your experiences, but I really have no idea where to go with them. What can we do in order to learn more about them? What methods of investigation is this subject open to? I'm not saying this to dismiss anything--I'm saying this because I really don't know. Without a way to investigate, I just have no idea how to proceed in learning more on the subject.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:53 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 9:15 AM Ben! has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 189 (165550)
12-06-2004 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by PurpleYouko
12-05-2004 1:35 PM


Gotta be a new thread.
Ok I've proposed a new thread about relativity. I can't take it anymore.
Edited to add site:
http://EvC Forum: What would we think if Percy..... -->EvC Forum: What would we think if Percy.....
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-06-2004 03:59 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:35 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by AdminPhat, posted 12-06-2004 6:44 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied
 Message 135 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 9:18 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied
 Message 138 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 12:28 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 189 (165572)
12-06-2004 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by The Dread Dormammu
12-06-2004 3:57 AM


Re: Gotta be a new thread.
The Dread Dormammu writes:
Ok I've proposed a new thread about relativity. I can't take it anymore.
Well, if its ok with everyone, lets continue discussion about spirits and other incorporial things in Xenocrates thread about Demons and Angels. Any objections?
If not, I will close this thread in a day or so, unless my elder administrators correct me. Go to this thread for discussions about spirits and other incorporial things:
http://EvC Forum: Existence of Demons (and Angels) -->EvC Forum: Existence of Demons (and Angels)
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-06-2004 06:50 AM
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-06-2004 06:52 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-06-2004 3:57 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by lfen, posted 12-06-2004 11:19 AM AdminPhat has not replied
 Message 137 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-06-2004 12:16 PM AdminPhat has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 132 of 189 (165596)
12-06-2004 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
12-05-2004 1:58 PM


Re: Which parts of GR are still untested?
Primarily the ones that contradict parts of QM in extreme cases. We know that one of the two needs to be modified to fit all the eveidence under all conditions.
I know most of it has been tested.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-05-2004 1:58 PM jar has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 133 of 189 (165598)
12-06-2004 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by lfen
12-05-2004 3:02 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Not "A" belief system, but I don't think the brain can function with out some biases and beliefs though not necessarily conscious. I am suggesting that you need to investigate your brain function as well.
I suggest an odd but interesting little book that touches on your interests in "supernatural" and "suspending belief":
OK I can buy that. Possibly I do have a slight bias in wanting to be able to beleive that there is something more out there. I recognize that in myself and attempt to make allowances. Any research into either view of the subject is sure to help. Thanks for the reference.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 3:02 PM lfen has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 134 of 189 (165600)
12-06-2004 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Ben!
12-05-2004 4:33 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Bencip19 writes:
I definitely wouldn't dismiss your experiences, but I really have no idea where to go with them. What can we do in order to learn more about them? What methods of investigation is this subject open to? I'm not saying this to dismiss anything--I'm saying this because I really don't know. Without a way to investigate, I just have no idea how to proceed in learning more on the subject.
Tell me about it! This has always been my problem too. We need to learn more before we can postulate plausible explanations but the feild appears to be so full of fakes and charlatans that no true scientist will take it seriously enough to really look into it. Add to that the fact that stuff conveniently doesn't work under laboratory conditions and what are we left with? Nothing!
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 4:33 PM Ben! has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 135 of 189 (165601)
12-06-2004 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by The Dread Dormammu
12-06-2004 3:57 AM


Re: Gotta be a new thread.
Dormamu writes:
Ok I've proposed a new thread about relativity. I can't take it anymore.
Edited to add site:
Right then. Looks like I had better try to overcome my mathematical issues and really try to learn this stuff. See you over there when I am ready.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-06-2004 3:57 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
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