Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

The answer is yes the people calling themselves Palestinians right now are native to the land. Before the state of Israel was created they were living right there in the region now identified as Israel and the Palestinian territories.You could equally ask, and with greater validity, if the current Israelis are native to the land where Israel now exists. Who were they before Israel was formed by the mandates of the British and UN forces in the area? Seems to be the same as the other "nameless" people living in that same area.Who were most of them currently in Israel after the creation of Israel? US citizens, Russians, Europeans. Many are immigrants since the formation, and after the major wars. Remember large groups of themselves call themselves "settlers", and the territories in dispute are called "settlements". That pretty much tells you right there that the Israelis in those areas are not native.Of course normally "settlers" means moving into land that is currently unoccupied, where in this case it now means scaring people off their own land by force, destroying their property and then moving into the land "currently unoccupied".So your question is actually answered about the Israelis by the Israelis. They are not native. That is unless you start trying to bring up history?Well in that case the people who call themselves Palestinians are still native to the land. If we can say because Israelis are descendants of people that lived on that land a number of millenia ago, why can the other people not cite how long ago it was that their people were in the land? Remember Israel was founded on land previously occupied... much as this process is being repeated today.In fact... ding ding ding... the people who were to become the Israelis moved there in an exodus. Yeah, remember that? They were not native to the area even when Israel first began.You may have a technical point that the people, who are currently calling themselves Palestinians, are referring to a long ago land from which their people are not descended, but what does that mean? They are not claiming the right to the land they've owned for generations because they descended from a certain group of people from that long ago era. They are simply taking on a name from the name that the region held long ago.That is a lot less stretched, than people today claiming to be ressurecting the actual past kingdom of Israel, which ironically enough was formed by people not native to that land, claiming they have more right to that land because the current people living there are not native to it.In essence, if we are free to look back in time, all people are native to all lands in that area. This goes double if the history you believe in is that all people in the world came from two individuals right nearby.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

So basically your only major objection to my post is questioning the existence of Palestinians as they are thought of today. One might question your motives for why you would even need to invalidate my father's nationality. Does some how not having an "official" nationality justify the displacement and subsequent terrorizing of the Arabs who had been living there for dozens upon dozens of generations?This happened elsewhere in history as well. The Cherokee people of Native America lived in the eastern United States for quite some time. They didn't have borders or a capitol building but they functioned quite well in their society in their own way. They had a very family/clan centric society. Now does this lack of a "formal nationality" justify the Trail of Tears?Yes, Palestine as it was prior to the invasion was just a region not a nationality. Yet the people who lived there were called Phillistini by other Arabs from around the Middle East who they themselves were identified by their locale. There was even a name for the nomads who had no location the Bidwani. You were a people by where you lived even though no formal nation existed. This notion of a state as it is in western society was not pervasive for your average pre-WWII Arab society. Similar to the many Native American cultures they had clans (my clan name is Saramah) and such but they were still considered a Phillistini if they lived in the particular region of topic. I resent this. I know who I am and your allegation of my ignorance is both deceitful and ignorant yourself. I am an Arab who’s family has lived for many dozens of generations in a land called Phillistin and my ancestors were called Phillistini by others around them. I can also be called a Dibwani because my particular family lives in a town called DerDubwan. If you were to ask me in Arabic my bloodline I would say Phillistini and if you were an Arab from another region would understand the reference. That name in Arabic is translated Palestinian and no amount of not having a western notion of a nation will make me any less a Palestinian. I will lay claim to the bloodline that I am and I resent you demeaning it. The Palestinians as we know them today are not the Philistines of ancient. I also will not answer your list of loaded questions.Regardless of the official nationality of my family the things that have been done to them cannot be justified by said lack of nationality. No one from my family has ever been a terrorist. No one from my family has ever strapped a bomb to their chest and ran into an Israeli settlement shouting ALLLLAAAAAHHH! Yet for many years many of my cousins were not allowed to attend school. Our family farm has been torched by Israeli peacekeepers. Olive trees were bulldozed and next year when they were replanted those were then subsequently bulldozed. Do you know how long it takes a sapling olive tree to start producing fruit? In my family we have a tradition that a grandfather would plant olive trees in his youth so that his grandchildren would be able to bear their first fruit. We are lucky in that we are some who haven’t (yet) had our homes torn down for the sake of peace. What for? I wish someone would tell me why with a legitimate reason!So in closing: Irrationality can continue to be IYHO. I AM a Palestinian (Phillistini) by decent and an American by birth and no amount of semantic ballet will change that.

Well said holmes. Thank you.

Because of the Holocaust, I guess. 3-4 million Jews in gas chambers apparently buys you the right to do all kinds of things.What's the going rate on that, exactly? When the Israeli army machineguns a terrifed 14-year-old girl for no reason, how many Jews in gas chambers did they spend?Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't read your question right. Legitimate reason? Absolutely none, I guess.

Like yours haven't been equally well written? No need to thank me.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

There is no need to be so sensitive. It is possible that your "bloodline" is from both Arab and European, I have no way of knowing and I really could not care less. My point was that you claimed that you are Palestinian by "blood", something you could not possibly know for certain without a DNA test.I am an American, but I do not claim to be an American by blood as there is no such thing. Not even those who we now refer to as "Native American" are American by blood. Every single individual living on this continent is an immigrant, only the period of time with regards to their migration separates us. Some are American by birth, some by choice, and some by conquest.....but none are so by blood.Conquest is nothing new to mankind and for someone to claim that because they choose to call themselves Palestinians gives them the unquestionable right to a certain piece of land is to lend support the argument that because one calls oneself an Israeli or a Jew that they have the unquestionable right to the land of their ancestors.The Arabs were not in control of Palestine before Israel was reborn, the Brits were, and the Arabs begged the Brits not to let any more Jews into the land, for fear of becoming a minority, a notion that is laughable. Jews who dwelt in that land were also referred to as Palestinians but they did not adopt this title. They knew they were Jews. In fact, the Arabs who also dwelt in that land did not immediately adopt this title either, it is a title that was, in large extent, forced upon them. They knew they were Arabs.If you choose to call yourself a Palestinian that is your choice but do not expect people to buy into the lie that somehow Palestine is your ancient homeland or that anyone who calls themself a Palestinian has some god given right to the land. Israel can make that claim based upon their ancient writings, but the reality is, the land, any land, belongs to those who presently control it.Several nationalities have controlled the land over the millennia, including the Jews who control it once again. I would give no more credence to those calling themselves Palestinians crying out "the land belongs to us" than I would to Mexicans crying out "the land belongs to us" when referring to the Southwest U.S.A., and don't try to use the argument that the Mexicans no longer inhabit that land. I live in that land and believe me, they are a large part of the population, but they live in America, not Mexico.At the moment, Americans control what is now known as the U.S.A. but a thousand years from now this may not be the case. In two thousand years they may control it again, just as Jews once again control the land of Israel. The Arabs had the opportunity for a Palestinian nation, something that has never existed in the history of mankind, but because their nation would exist next to a Jewish nation they chose war instead. They continue to suffer the consequences of that choice.If and when they choose to join the other nations of the 21st century and choose peace with their Israeli neighbors I will applaud them. Until that time, they must bear the burden, and the full responsibility, of their children dying needlessly while they continue to engage in a war that cannot be won through terrorist attacks on civilians. Neither do I buy into the argument that "there are Arab children with stones being killed by Israeli soldiers with guns." One need only be hit in the head with a stone to understand that it too can be a lethal weapon. I have heard that a man named Goliath learned this the hard way, and though it was actually a sword that separated him from his head, it was a mere stone that felled him.The only hope for peace is for the Arabs to make peace with Israel, accepting them as their neighbor. Until that happens Arab children will continue to die needlessly and Arab adults will have no one to blame but themselves. It is a sad truth but a truth nonetheless. If I had to choose between sharing land while making peace with an enemy or risk the lives of my children, the choice is a no-brainer. I would choose peace everytime.My children are far more important to me that any piece of land that has changed hands over and over and over again. Too bad the Arabs in power are not so level headed. If they truly cared about their Arabs brothers and sisters, they could have enjoyed the benefits of peace since 1948 instead of the senseless path of war and violence that they chose to embark upon. What has it gotten them? Heartache, misery, and poverty.....a poverty that could have been avoided had Yassar Arafat not stolen hundreds of millions of dollars from them.Yassar Arafat was no leader. He was a thief and a murderer who did not care for the welfare the Arabs he claimed to support. All he cared about was the destruction of Israel. Well Yasser is dead and Israel still lives. Perhaps now the reality of Israel will bring true leadership to the PLO and peace with Israel can also become a reality. I have my hopes but until the Arabs elect a leader who truly seeks peace I predict several more decades of needless suffering and death on both sides.

---

The theory of evolution is a viable theory, absent the myth of macroevolution.
Once the myth of macroevolution is included, the viability of the theory of evolution vanishes as it slowly evolves into just another example of an implausible story,
nestled amongst the numerous fairytale's of our youth.-----DarkStar

I wonder where I heard this before? Hey wait, it was me! And so Israelis are not native to the land they occupy either, right?... They are not claiming they have rights to the land because they are Palestinian, in the sense they have some ancient heritage, they claim they have rights to the land because they lived there up until being illegally shoved off... not in conquest, though I guess twisted minds might view it that way. In that case you agree Jews should have given up their land and belongings to Nazis because they were being conquered?Yeah, too bad they kept hoping and trusting in international law and decency of others to prevail. They got the shaft.In the end they chose the name based on the region's ancient name.Their rights come from having lived on the land right up until Israelis illegally kicked them off. This shows a rather odd sense of history, and an odd justification. How does British control (which was imposed recently) lend legitimacy to anything? I guess then everything they did in India and Afghanistan and Iraq was alright? Oh wait, no, just when it benefits Jews thank you. The irony contained within this statement is staggering. The Palestinians are not claiming ancient heritage, they are claiming direct ownership from direct lineage of actually owning the land."Arab" civilians were forced off the land they "presently" controlled during war time, as well as outside of wars, by military forces and armed civilian "settler" groups who claim that scripture gave them the right. They continue to claim that scripture gives them the right. Everything is based ALONE on scripture.So I guess you have now come to admit the obvious, Israelis really have no claim on the land outside of the brute force used to eject the civilian populace, so that "settlers" could come in and sit on it.Of course it is laughable that they would become a minority. They were 10 to 1 in the region before the British created modern Israel Of course their fears were actualized as the British and Zionists carefully carved a border such that the 1 would locally be a majority in government... wholly disenfranchising the people within the border by making them a minority.If they had stuck with scriptural borders the Israelis would have remained minorities. They feared that situation. So they struck a deal with another nation to cut a border that would ensure their local dominance, then began acquiring land around that border in illegal moves, trying to grow their nation to the scriptural size. Nazis controlled Germany, and then most of Europe. The Taliban controlled Afghanistan. The Sunnis controlled Iraq. The Afrikaans controlled South Africa.All of these are examples of contolling governments being thrown out of power because of their treatement of indigenous people, and those around them.That is why I have stated that this is what must be done now with Israel. Only with the cloak of a prozionist bias can the actions of Israel... indeed even its creation... seem different than the actions of those nations mentioned above.The Arabs of that region were disenfranchised, and continue to be disenfranchised. They were oppressed, and continue to be oppressed. They were killed in large numbers and continue to be killed in large numbers. They were terrorized and continue to be terrorized. This is wrong. They were upset as the artificial border of Israel trapped friends and family into that nation, forcing them to FOREVER remain minorities. It also trapped land they had owned. And after the wars the Israelis just kept taking more land, and more land.In fact the majority of Arabs were fine with living with Jews and had been with some time. It was their Jewish neighbors suddenly declaring they had a new nation within the region and trapping Arabs within as a minority, which actually hurt the Arabs.They were only defending themselves from a racist nation being foisted upon them by outsiders and their zionist neighbors who were too racist to accept living with them in an equal democratic way.They didn't need a nation separate from other races, the zionists did. That they would not accept such a thing is understandable. That the lure of having a nation within the remaining lands (while their friends and family were still trapped as mandated minorities FOREVER within a racist state) should be obviously unappealling. Colonialism? Lack of Democracy? State mandated racism? Oppression of those held under occupation against the rules of war?Perhaps when Israel gets with the 21st century, the Palestinians and everyone else will applaud them. So do you believe that David should have lain down his rock, if Goliath was riding in a tank? Is that your argument? Uhhhh, the Jews chose not to share the land... that's why they formed Israel? And I don't think you'd agree to sharing the land in the fashion now presented by Israel, that is unless you would have agreed to share the land as the Nazis were willing to share it with Jews? You'd get in the ghetto? Or how about S Africa, you'd let the Afrikaans rule you? What a sickening blame the victim mentality. This sounds like a Nazi explaining how some jews shouldn't make trouble for the rest and agree to move into the ghettos.This is so hypocritically cruel, your crocodile tears have crocodilian features. It is true he was not the best leader they could have had. I have no idea if he was a thief, but he certainly was not a murderer. He did care about their welfare, though perhaps got tangled up in his emotions about the conflict, and settled for emotional solutions rather than practical ones.Sharon is a thief, murderer, and has no care about the Palestinians. He only wants the suffering and disenfranchisement of Palestinians. He even called for the assassination of the Israeli PM who was working successfully with Arafat for peace, and that PM was assassinated by zionists... killing peace talks.Your point? All men die, especially old ones, while nations live on. Was that supposed to sound prophetic or something? Oh, I guess we could say Israeli PM assassinated and Sharon lived on to implement his policies of non-peace instead. That would have at least made sense.I do hope that the Palestinians elect a better leader. And I hope with the name Arafat out of the way, Sharon will actually start dealing with the situation. His childish inability to work with Arafat cost way too many lives. I also hope Bush will act like a grownup and begin working with whoever the Palestinians elect.I also predict that the Palestinians will continue to suffer until either zionist extremists are removed from Israeli government, or the Palestinians capitulate.That is the reasoning you have espoused right? Capitulate or die? What a nice biblical ring that has... or Nazi... whatever.But I do agree to some degree. I think they had their valid shot to end the illegal and monstrous entity of Israel. They did fail. Now they are just beating their heads against a giant brick wall. They need to figure out how to survive and thrive without justice. People do it all the time... just look at the Native Americans.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

And in fact I am partly European and Native American but that is because my mother is not a Phillistini and I don't need a DNA test to show that. I can claim to be Palestinian by blood because I can trace my heritage back on my fathers side for dozens of generations all to people who lived where we lived now in Phillistin. Your seem to still think that Palestinians don't really exist even though you are talking to one. If you want to call me by the name that other Arabs have called my family for generations Phillistini then you can instead of the westernized name of Palestinian. This is what make America so unique. It is because America was created BY the immigration of nearly all nationalities that makes it hard to have "American decent". This line is slowly being blurred through as more and more people have a diverse group of ancestry who live in the states. That doesn’t change the fact that I am a Phillistini from my fathers side having that been our identification for longer than you can probably trace your ancestry. Your disbelief does not make it any less fact. You have a right to your home because you live there. If someone came and forcibly kicked you out of your home then you would have the right to defend yourself and your property. Palestinians feel they have the right to the land because it was already their land before they were removed by force by an invader! Did you not read my previous post. You are wrong by the very fact that we and other Arabs have been calling us Phillistini for much longer than the westernized word Palestinian has existed. Once again, your disbelief does not make your position true. It is my homeland due to the fact that we have actually been living there much longer then you seem to be able to comprehend. If a piece of property has been in your family for 1000 years is that not your homeland? If all the rest of the clans around you have maintained possession of their property for just as long is that not their homeland? There is one MAJOR difference between the American conquest of Mexico and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians. America at one point stopped killing Mexicans so that the healing process could begin. This has not been done in holy land. You see, when keep killing people it only makes them want to kill you more. Unless you kill them all to which one would be no better than Hitler and his plan for the Jews.It behooves the victor of this action, the Israelis, to cease action on their people of conquest. If killing is not ceased by the invader, then why would you ever expect the resistance to cease? Who said they wanted a nation? We have a nation here in America and it doesn’t seem to be helping us do anything better than anyone else right now except kill people. Get out or die? What a great list of options!!!! How about if first Israel joined the 21st century and started following international law as it relates to human right and the responsibilities of an occupying force? You seem to think that this is all the Palestinians fault and that poor invading Israel is just a victim. So basically, they need to submit to being terrorized or put up with their children being killed? Isn’t that the same thing!?!?!?!?! Except when you are wearing armor and a helmet or are hmm.lets see. in a TANK! Which can only be done once Israel stops killing and terrorizing the people they occupy. How about that list of things that has happened to my family since the invasion and continues to happen to the people to this day? The story about the Palestinians being harassed by dogs and even shot during their yearly olive harvest is recent. And this is the most sick and disgusting perpetuation of hatred and nonsense I have ever hear come out of the mouth of an individual that I can remember. Until you accept your illegal and oppressive occupation, your children are going to keep dying and you have no one to blame except yourself.I can’t believe a human being claiming to want a peaceful resolution to this would say such a ghastly thing. Except living next to Israelis is not their biggest issue. It is the fact that they are being killed and terrorized by those Israelis that they are taking offense to. If I don’t like my neighbor for some reason that is fine but as soon as he starts breaking into my house and terrorizing my family then I WILL defend myself. What about being able to send your children to school? What if the condition of your acceptance was that you could no longer receive healthcare or educate your children? Would you fight and risk everything? Seems to me that there have been many times in history where a whole bunch of people chose this path and rightly so. And who so gladly delivered that heartache, misery, and poverty? Until Israel realizes that they have no right to kill, maim, burn, loot, tax, harass, and bully innocent people then I predict several more decades of needless suffering and death on both sides as well.ABE:For many years you have picked olives in the same grove as your fathers. Except now you get shot and and mauled by dogs.BBC NEWS | Middle East | Ugly war over West Bank olive cropThis message has been edited by Jazzns, 12-05-2004 11:51 AM

Jazzns, I applaud your control and passion in explaining your position on this volatle topic! Just out of curiousity, what feelings do you have for Israel in general? Is there hatred? fear? sadness?
Share with me.

I personally think Israel needs some drastic reforms as it relates to the people who are going to be their neighbors for quite some time. Being that they are the victors of this conquest they have the upper hand, control and therefore responsibility to set the standard for peace. Instead they are playing the historic role of an oppressive, violent, and intolerant nation. America, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Ancient Rome, Persia, Egypt, etc all did this in their history.Do I hate Israel? Yes, I hate the current incarnation of their bureaucracy that has been shown time and again to purposefully violate international law. I hate terrorism, killing, oppression, and violence against innocents in general.Do I fear Israel? No I do not personally fear any nation or any man. I fear for those who live under its boot though and pray for enlightenment and the demise of racism and terror.Do I feel sadness? Of course I feel sadness for the situation. It is a sad and awful testament to how evil man can be on both sides of issue. No one who kills in hatred is innocent but I do feel that the solution must come from Israel.

Exactly... to the victor go the spoils, but also responsibility. Israel is currently violating norms and laws regarding the responsibilities which come with being an occupying power (ie the victor).

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)