Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   carrot & stick
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 16 of 39 (165461)
12-05-2004 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Ben!
12-05-2004 4:11 PM


Re: The Dopaminergic Reward System and Religion
Clarify the nature of the system, to show that it's not afterlife that has to be the reward. As long as there is always something in the future to strive for, the system of delayed reward and extended anticipation will work.
Ben,
I think this is a very significant observation and not only for religion but to explain important aspects of human psychology.
It also leads me to speculate on the brain state after the dissolution of the sense of self. The Hindu's speak of bliss but it's very clear they are not speaking of pleasure nor is it the anticipatory reward of dopamine.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 4:11 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 6:19 PM lfen has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 17 of 39 (165463)
12-05-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by lfen
12-05-2004 6:14 PM


Re: The Dopaminergic Reward System and Religion
lfen,
Would this thread be an appropriate place to post your speculation? I agree that it seems like a release from the dopaminergic reward system. But beyond that, I don't have any ideas offhand... I'd be interested to hear yours.
Just not sure where's a good place to talk about it. If it's here... let's do it
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 6:14 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 6:41 PM Ben! has not replied
 Message 21 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 6:52 PM Ben! has not replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 18 of 39 (165470)
12-05-2004 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Ben!
12-05-2004 6:19 PM


Re: The Dopaminergic Reward System and Religion
Not sure if this is the right thread to delve deeper into that as it was meant to be a discussion of what religions don’t have a concept of continued life on some form or other. And those that do, is this the primary social control (do as we say or we damn your eternal soul) and would the religions have the same level of power if people didn’t fear death and sought some kind of eternity beyond death.
But I’ll happily wait the judgement of one of the admins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 6:19 PM Ben! has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 19 of 39 (165472)
12-05-2004 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Ben!
12-05-2004 6:05 PM


RealPlayer
Propietary formats. I don't know enough about all the different formats. I though mpg could be used by anyone but maybe not. I may decided to install Realplayer. It's not horrible but it was annoying to have it stick stuff all over my system. I use Firefox maybe it can contain it.
I wanted to hear Damasio, I've gotten so much from his books.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 6:05 PM Ben! has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 20 of 39 (165473)
12-05-2004 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Ben!
12-05-2004 6:05 PM


RealPlayer
Propietary formats. I don't know enough about all the different formats. I though mpg could be used by anyone but maybe not. I may decided to install Realplayer. It's not horrible but it was annoying to have it stick stuff all over my system. I use Firefox maybe it can contain it.
I wanted to hear Damasio, I've gotten so much from his books.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 6:05 PM Ben! has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 21 of 39 (165476)
12-05-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Ben!
12-05-2004 6:19 PM


Re: The Dopaminergic Reward System and Religion
I think it hinges on the definition of "life".
Are there religions out there that don’t as a core concept offer some idea of life eternal?
I suspect that nondualism falls just outside this. It doesn't offer the prospect of eternal continuation of individual's life. It says that the individual is an illusion of separateness that arises for awhile and then subsides, however the consciousness that is aware of this individual is not the individual and was never born hence never dies. So awakening offers the opportunity for consciousness to dis identify with the organism and thus experience it's eternal nature.
I can't tell if this would satisfy the OP or not.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 6:19 PM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 7:06 PM lfen has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 22 of 39 (165479)
12-05-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by lfen
12-05-2004 6:52 PM


nondualism, gnosis et al
That sounds very much like the Gnostic system (at least described in jesus and the goddess by Tim Freke) where we are the universal consciousness experiencing the world and itself through multiple individualities. And realising this allows you to become one with the UC and attain Gnosis .
It eases there anxiety over dying because they then believe they are returning to the greater whole from which they emerged from in the first place. It teaches that loosing the sense of self is no big thing as this is just a false facade put on by the UC to experience creation (which isn’t really real in the first place)
I believe this does fall into a life after death, eternal life model as the individual is taught they ARE the UC and thus can not die for they were never born. It’s just the natural conclusion of an internalised concept of god over an externalised concept.
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 12-05-2004 07:08 PM
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 12-05-2004 07:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 6:52 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 9:02 PM ohnhai has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 23 of 39 (165501)
12-05-2004 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ohnhai
12-05-2004 7:06 PM


Re: nondualism, gnosis et al
my thought was this if The vast majority of religions did not enshrine the concept of eternal salvation at the core of their belief, did not offer this carrot of hope of life eternal would religion have held sway over the world’s population to the same degree?
Popular religions, and Buddhism did give rise to a popular Buddhism for those who by circumstance couldn't follow the path to awakening, do depend on Carrot and Stick. Shinto may be an exception I don't recall what it teaches about after death though.
This book:
Title: Eat fat, be healthy : understanding the heartstopper gene and when a low-fat diet can kill you / Matthew J. Bayan ; [foreword by Frank Carrea]
Author: Bayan, Matthew J.
Publisher, Date: New York : Scribner/Simon & Schuster, Inc., c2000.
ISBN: 0684865270 - Description: 220 p. : ill. ; 23 cm
It is a quiet place, not warm, not cold. In fact, it doesn't seem I have a body at all. I am just here. It is milky white, not bright, just a constant glow all around me. I have been here a long time, yet there is no sense of urgency or desire to leave. Time is meaningless. I am just here in an endless now.
My thoughts clarify and I understand that I am not where I have been all my life. This place is clearly an otherwhere. I sense that the space is infinite and that I can stay forever....
I have no fear. It doesn't feel like a bad prospect. It is not something over which I have control, so I accept it in a peacefulness that I have never known. Time goes on, Years, days, minutes. I have been here forever; I have never been born. This is where I had come from, been, and would remain.
Far off there is a tug, a ripple. Something has happened in the unhappening around me. I am suddenly aware that the other place still exists. The place I had been for a while. the physical place. And I know I can make a choice."
pp. 26, 27
This ancedote, I don't offer it as data or evidence, is part of the author's story of his heart attack. The tug or ripple he talks about appears to be one of the over 70 shocks delivered to restart his heart. The book is not about his near death experience but about his recovery from the heart attack and his discovery that an extremely low fat diet was wrong for his genetic type as his body made more cholestral than it did when eating moderately low fat. He gives no indication that he has read Tibetan Buddhist literature yet his discription fits with the Tibetan teaching on the clear light.
He was not dead at the time but his heart had stopped and his brain was in a crisis state. So this is not an ancedote of what happens after death, only what one person experience while dying.
I do offer it as the account of an experience not a belief. And it gives a more accessible account of the non dual than the eastern materials often do. The experience may just be that and ends with the death of the brain. On the other hand I believe it may be possible that this experience was of what Tibetan's call primordial awareness.
This state is the carrot of Buddhism. The stick is the desires that result in the continuation of individual life which creates suffering inevitably.
lfen
edited because I forgot I wasn't pasting but had copied the quoted text and there were a few typos needing correction.
This message has been edited by lfen, 12-05-2004 09:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 7:06 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 9:21 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 25 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 10:15 PM lfen has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 24 of 39 (165504)
12-05-2004 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by lfen
12-05-2004 9:02 PM


Re: nondualism, gnosis et al
Interesting. Nice description.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 9:02 PM lfen has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 25 of 39 (165516)
12-05-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by lfen
12-05-2004 9:02 PM


Re: nondualism, gnosis et al
Interesting stuff, lfen. Your relation between it and 'primordial awareness' is interesting. I hadn't made that tie before.
The loss of sense of self is really interesting to me. So is the loss of sense of time. Even at the end, the apparent 'choice' to choose to 'go back' or 'stay here' is food for thought.
Lots to think about. Thanks.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 9:02 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 11:10 PM Ben! has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 26 of 39 (165520)
12-05-2004 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Ben!
12-05-2004 10:15 PM


Re: nondualism, gnosis et al
The BARDO THODOL inaccurately translated as the TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD, is a document to guide the awareness of the deceased in the transitional state (bardo) after death. The Tibetans believe that the deceased consciousness has a choice to leave the wheel of karma and remain as the ground consciousness but if attachment to desires remain there will be rebirth in various realms. They believe that at death for a moment everyone has a glimse of their true nature, the clear light of the primordial consciousness. The dead are urged to enter the clear light.
Here is a quote from Bernadette Robert's book THE EXPERIENCE OF NO SELF:
"How it Works:" "There is no multiplicity of existences; only what Is has existence, an existence that can expand itself into an infinite variety of forms that constitute the movement and manifested aspect of itself. Though what Is, is the act, movement, and changing of all forms - and is form itself - it is, at the same time, the unchanging, unknowable aspect of all form. Thus, that which Is, continually observes the coming and going - the changing and movement - of its own form or acts, without participating in any essential change itself. Since the nature or essence of Itself is act, there can be no separation between its knowing, acting, existing, or between any aspect of itself, because that which acts, that which it acts upon, and the act itself are one without division. It never goes outside itself to know itself because the unmanifested, the manifesting, and the manifested are One."
I offer these as brief indications of what nonduality points to. They aren't explanations really but an attempt to point to that which language can't convey but which we can experience of ourself.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Ben!, posted 12-05-2004 10:15 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 39 (165544)
12-06-2004 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ohnhai
12-05-2004 4:32 PM


Re: Walk softly and carry a big Carrot
bencip19 writes:
The Dopaminergic Reward System and Religion--Summary:
Can religious belief be explained simply by the nature of dopamine receptors?... animals will want to keep the dopamine levels as high as possible.
How do Pavlovs pooches fit into this?
Smolinksy extends this to argue that, ultimately, this is where afterlife, martyrdom, etc. come from.
And it is why I have a problem with casinos. The anticipation of that payoff over rides all common sense. As far as my Christian faith goes, I focus more on the daily relationship with God and my need for Him rather than on any big payoff when the saints go marchin in.
MiketheWiz writes:
Only when consciousness is in place, are the purpose of systems, able to be made.
I seem to be a verb --
an evolutionary process --
an integral function of the universe,
and so are you.
-- Buckminster Fuller
ohnhai writes:
But also in the light of #4 things like support of sporting team qualifies as religion. If you look at all the symptoms it would be not too hard to agree. Most supporters have a strong faith in the future success of their team, even if they consistently lurk at the bottom of the lowest league.
Funny that you mention sports, ohnhai. Here in Denver, we have people who are such rabid Broncomaniacs that they have entire houases painted with team colors and often have a shrineroom in the home with nothing but Bronco memorabilia. They brave frigid elements to attend every home game, and the main conversation in their lives is the team and the scene surrounding it. Do they "worship" the Broncos? Lets study the definition:
Websters writes:
1worship \"wr-shp\ n [ME worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, fr. OE weorthscipe worthiness, respect, fr. weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship, suffix denoting quality or condition] 1 chiefly Brit : a person of importance used as a title for officials 2 : reverence toward a divine being or supernatural power; also : the expression of such reverence 3 : extravagant respect or admiration or devotion <~ of the dollar>
Perhaps the sports maniac is guilty of definition #3 at the worst.
ohnhai writes:
It would have been far more simple a question to answer if it has simply remained a question of fearing for your soul upon death, but as the religions gained power they became more powerful and held onto it because as well as fearing for their soul people began to fear the mechanisms, especially the punitive, of the very structures that were offering eternal salvation. The join us or die approach.
When we studied Western Civ in college, the European people were coerced into religion by a lot of peer pressure. They saw these great Cathedrals as common gathering places where anyone who wished to be accepted and respected would show up. There is a lot of social cohesion in religious gatherings that has nothing to do with God and everything to do with how we appear or wish to appear to each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 4:32 PM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Ben!, posted 12-07-2004 1:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 39 (165782)
12-06-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
12-05-2004 8:09 AM


What about Wickens?
I haven't studied up on alot of the other religions either but it seems as though the ones focusing on "Mother Earth" would lean more towards the religions that have no future or afterlife. Unless you call being buried in the earth and becoming part of the grasses ate by horses and crapped out onto a field a continuation of your life. Who knows? -Z

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 12-05-2004 8:09 AM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2004 11:13 PM Zachariah has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 29 of 39 (165787)
12-06-2004 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Zachariah
12-06-2004 10:54 PM


Re: What about Wickens?
Actually many Wiccan's believe in reincarnation or an afterlife in the Summerlands.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Zachariah, posted 12-06-2004 10:54 PM Zachariah has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 30 of 39 (165814)
12-07-2004 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-06-2004 3:21 AM


Re: Walk softly and carry a big Carrot
Phatboy writes:
How do Pavlovs pooches fit into this?
I don't know.
"Pavlov's pooches" are supposed to show associative learning. I don't know the neurological basis of associative learning, or even if it involves the dopaminergic reward system.
Just curious... why do you ask? I don't see where you might want to take it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 3:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-07-2004 3:49 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024