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Author Topic:   Belief...a choice?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 113 (164942)
12-03-2004 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
12-03-2004 2:57 AM


Re: Impartation or Imagination?
quote:
Is Belief formed out of experience? If so, I maintain that much of my personal belief arose out of experience(s) which I regarded as an impartation of the Spirit but which SOME people may label an overactive imagination!
I'd say that is a perfectly fair statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-03-2004 2:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 107 of 113 (165131)
12-04-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
12-01-2004 7:52 AM


Re: Basis of belief....
schrafinator writes:
What does this mean?
I don't find any "2+2=5" in matters of science at all.
I guess then that transitional fossils are not part of science. Go check out the tread.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 12-01-2004 7:52 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by LinearAq, posted 12-10-2004 10:49 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 108 of 113 (165186)
12-04-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by MrHambre
12-03-2004 9:44 AM


Re: Get Real
MrHambre writes:
We don't choose the time or place in which we're born. We can't see the world through the eyes of someone born and educated in a different era, and we can't completely disregard the perspective that we owe to modern science and technology. However, we decide what's meaningful to us and judge the plausibility of certain beliefs according to what we already acknowledge as reality.
Backing up to zero...what you already acknowledge as reality early in life was probably learned at a time when you believed what you were told by those sources of ultimate knowledge...adults (mostly family adults). The questioning didn't start until you started hearing differing opinions but it was then still colored by the original beliefs. The question is did you ever choose to believe anything without evidence. I guess the input of your ultimate knowledge source can be considered valid evidence in a way.
Informed choice is still using evidence. My question was: can you choose to believe something that you feel is not strongly supported or has, in your opinion, strong evidence against it?

He has succeeded in is bid for anonymity

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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 109 of 113 (166934)
12-10-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Itachi Uchiha
12-04-2004 12:09 PM


Re: Basis of belief....
jazzlover_PR writes:
I guess then that transitional fossils are not part of science. Go check out the tread.
What thread?
How are transitional fossils like 2+2=5? You mean that to believe they are transitional is like believing 2+2=5? How so?
oops...off topic

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 Message 107 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 12-04-2004 12:09 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 113 (178946)
01-20-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LinearAq
11-22-2004 11:16 AM


Back on Topic
The original topic starter for this thread was:
jazzlover_PR states:
We all choose what we want to believe.
Then he goes on to give the impression that to believe something, all you have to do is choose to believe it.
I say that is an incorrect statement. You cannot believe something without some rationalization. For example: I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try. I may be tortured enough, as in Orwell's "1984", but I don't see how I could make myself believe something like that without appropriate evidence.
Therefore, I state that belief is not a choice.
Upon what basis do rational minds make a choice?
Is Belief in the supernatural, for instance, in any way rational? For me, it is, because I have experienced it.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 3:43 PM Phat has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 111 of 113 (178980)
01-20-2005 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
01-20-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Back on Topic
"Imagine this butterfly, exactly as it is, but ugly instead of beautiful."
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Try eating your favorite food but this time as you eat it find it disgusting. Try tasting something you really can't stomach, for me it would be cod liver oil, and imagine it was delicious. I couldn't rationalize that Hagen Das Coffee ice cream tastes as nasty as cod liver oil, or cod liver oil as delicious as Hagen Das.
btw, I knew a mother who had to keep the cod liver oil locked up as her preschooler daughter so loved it she would drink from the bottle if she could get to it, and that raised a very real risk of vitamin A poisoning. So I imagine that the little girl found the oil delicious but I can't imagine how she could do that!
lfen

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 Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-20-2005 12:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 6:38 AM lfen has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 113 (179568)
01-22-2005 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by lfen
01-20-2005 3:43 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Ifen writes:
Try eating your favorite food but this time as you eat it find it disgusting.
Do you mean literally or is this a parable?
If I found my favorite food disgusting, I would think my tastebuds were off.
If you mean spiritually, and that my favorite source...God as revealed in the Bible, was presented to me in a manner that made God ugly or distasteful, I would refuse the food based on how it was cooked. In other words, if you told me that the O.T. Yahweh was a manmade concept, I would simply disagree with you based on my Belief, but if you told me that Yahweh was God and yet was an evil God, I would be unable to digest what you said to me. We would either argue about it or I would simply choose a better cook.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-22-2005 04:40 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 3:43 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 113 of 113 (179571)
01-22-2005 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
01-22-2005 6:38 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Do you mean literally or is this a parable?
It's not a parable. It's a thought experiment meant to demonstrate that we can't choose how we feel about our experience. We can't decide to experience something as ugly or beautiful and we can't change our experience of it at that level. For example, if it's not our free will, what is it that determines if we find a particular butterfly beautiful or ugly?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 6:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
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