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Author Topic:   Can Evolution explain this? (Re: The biological evolution of religious belief)
Adminnemooseus
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Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 31 of 91 (160994)
11-18-2004 10:25 AM


Pretty good topic - Pretty poor topic title
I have now added the "(Re: The biological evolution of religious belief)" part to the topic title.
This may not be the best change. Suggestions for otherwise welcome, but please take any such to the "Change in Moderation?" topic (link below) rather than clutterering up this topic.
Cheers,
Adminnemooseus

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 91 (161188)
11-18-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Ben!
11-18-2004 2:12 AM


well, like I said in an earlier post, this aspect of evolution (the one where we wildly speculate about something) is so unscientific, anecdotal information is as good as any.
well, no, see that's just a hypothesis. it's supported by information. i haven't done any scientific study, collected real data, or done tests. it's an idea.
and besides, it's an idea relating to psychology. if creationists really wanted to take down a branch of science, they could probably do psych pretty easily, along with sociology. neither is a science, per se. with psych you can do double blind tests, but you can never actually get into the mind of the subject to know for sure.
i will never know if my cats worship me as a god.
Personally, I, like many others, think of religion stemming from a need to explain. This view of religion is certainly based on higher-level cognition.
this is a rather common view of religion. and there's a lot in the bible to support it. much of genesis and exodus is composed of individually framed stories which end in "and this is why... " etc. genesis 2 is a prime example, the whole story explain why people get married.
however, if we look at that for long enough, we realize that person who wrote to explain why people get married lived in a time when people already were getting married. seems like a rather small logical step, i know, but let me phrase it like this: the reasons are built on top of already existing conventions and religious rites.
for instance, in the exodus story, we are told why the people of israel observe passover, and slaughter a lamb, and why they hold a feast of unlevened bread. but they must have been already doing this at the time story was devised to explain it. the rituals themselves show other origins: fertility and harvest festivals.
But that doesn't necessarily explain its roots; maybe that's simply how it is used now.
yes, i think it actually makes more sense that although OUR forms of religion are higher-level functions and explanatory, it's rooted in lower-level, primitive beliefs.
Still, in order to attribute religion to your cats, I think you have to give them some mental apparatus (such as intentional states [that they want to do something] and a theory of mind [that doing this thing will make you happy]) that I'm not really prepared to do.
well, i doubt my cats are religious in all actuality. i was just suggesting that religion comes from similar practices. i'm not an abstract god to them, i'm a very real being. but if you've every owned cats, you know that some of them certainly have higher-level brain functions.
Of course, what you've said is possible. And it's also possible that it is just perception due to our tendency to 'personalize' pretty much anything--from cats to robots to clouds. We seem to naturally attribute intentional states to anything.
also true. but i don't think that's what i'm doing.
If we really wanted to discuss it, I think we'd have to get an agreement of what is religion.
well i'm not really trying to quibble about that, i'm just arguing that possibly it was a gradual onset from more animalistic practices.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 91 (161192)
11-18-2004 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by contracycle
11-18-2004 6:51 AM


Arachnophilia, here is a sort of counter to the idea that your cats are sacrificing to you. Dogs do this too, and dogs are pack animals - admittedly, cats less so. So it may be that they are wired to bring some of the prey back to the pack, or back to the pack leader.
this is a good point as well.
but look at levitical sacrifice practices, and the purpose they hold. the levites eat the sacrifices, except for under very specific circumstances. it's so that the levites can work at something else (religion) and not have to tend sheep, or hunt.
basically, sacrifices ARE bringing some prey back to the rest of the pack. i'm just suggesting that religious reasons were put on top of existing practices.
the rest of your post is also very interesting, and i agree. that's more or less exactly what i'm getting at. religion makes perfect evolutionary sense.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 91 (161197)
11-18-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Jack
11-18-2004 6:54 AM


The probable explanation for cats returning food to you is that they are trying to teach you to hunt. The behaviour of a cat bringing you live or dead prey is very similar to the behaviour of a mother cat bringing her kittens practice prey.
so you're saying that basically the cats think they're superior to us?
...i guess that makes sense, actually.
but i think they are perfectly well aware that we don't need to hunt, and we are not going hungry. afterall, we feed them in abundance. the behaviour itself doesn't seem to be related to food at all, though it may be the result of hard-wiring for bringing something back, as contracycle suggested.

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 35 of 91 (161199)
11-18-2004 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dr Jack
11-18-2004 6:54 AM


Mr Jack writes:
The probable explanation for cats returning food to you is that they are trying to teach you to hunt.
This reminds me. My parents just complained that my new puppy brought back into the house a dead mouse. Yuck.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

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SalineSage05
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 91 (161214)
11-18-2004 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
11-17-2004 8:17 PM


Re: Coragyps
And my guess is that 98% is a little on the high side.
When I said 98% I was refering to every man and women who has walked this planet. I do not know of any ancient tribes or even medieval communities that denied the existence of a higher power(s). Counting all those humans who lived before them and the majority of humans that live today I think I would be around the right figure. From what I know major trends in the disbelief of a creator did not begin until around the mid 1850's. Although there may be a small gathering on agnostic philosphers in ancient Greece and the Roman Empire I am un-aware of any large presence of followers.
What percentage would you give it? Please explain.


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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 37 of 91 (161219)
11-18-2004 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by SalineSage05
11-18-2004 5:33 PM


Don't sweat it
No one is disagreeing that a large marjority of humands (individuals and societies) carry (or have carried) some kind of religious belief - 88%, 98% 99% - who cares. Now stay with the actual topic - Why do they?
It should have been obvious that the "little on the high side" is not really disagreeing with you in a relevant way.
You are probably right, though, to include the past since current statitics would indicate that 98% may be high and it may then be dropping. However, use of such statistics would be irrelevant as even if "regular" religious observation were shown to be dropping we'd have to include the belief in a number of other replacements -- channeling, UFO's, astrology and so on. All of which need to be explained.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-18-2004 05:55 PM

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SalineSage05
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 91 (161242)
11-18-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminNosy
11-18-2004 5:55 PM


Re: Don't sweat it
I know it was a tad off subject. I apoligize.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 39 of 91 (161251)
11-18-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by SalineSage05
11-18-2004 7:21 PM


Re: Don't sweat it
Not nearly as badly off topic (if it is) as many, many other diversions that crop up.
After all the topic is to explain religious belief and the degree to which it is prevalent is therefore pertinent. However, since no one is agruing that it isn't at least pretty darn common there really isn't any need to beat on it.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 40 of 91 (161252)
11-18-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by SalineSage05
11-18-2004 5:33 PM


Re: Coragyps
Please explain.
I'm guessing that not too far from half the people who have ever lived have been alive within the last century or so, and that even in the Dark Ages a good number of folks were agnostics/atheists: they just didn't noise it about much.
Over 90% is pretty likely.
[/off topic diversion]

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southerngurl
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 91 (165794)
12-06-2004 11:36 PM


I'm pretty sure they found a specific part of the human brain that makes a human seek a God or some kind of religion.
This message has been edited by southerngurl, 12-06-2004 11:36 PM

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Fishbone79
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 91 (167772)
12-13-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by southerngurl
12-06-2004 11:36 PM


Darwin’s Cathedral
I’m not going to bother reading the past 3 pages of crapola, but there is a book written by known and reputed evolutionary theorist David Wilson called The evolution of Social Constructiveism. It will sufficiently explain the errors and or questions you may have concerning the evolution of religion. You should also see a book called Darwin’s Cathedral, which deals specifically with the evolution of religious beliefs.
If you step back and ask any question concerning humanity from an evolutionary perspective, you will be mind-numbingly surprised with what you find. It all fits and makes sense! Everything!
At any rate, you are sufficiently uniformed on this topic until you read these books. End of story.

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6467 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 43 of 91 (167781)
12-13-2004 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SalineSage05
11-17-2004 5:21 PM


Evolution of belief
The development of belief in the metaphysical is easily explicable in an evolutionary context. It has to do with the tools that early humans developed to deal with the environment, like anything else.
It must be remembered that evolution and selection do not work on gross physical traits. For instance, it is reasonable to assume that early hunters found that throwing things at prey would be advantageous. The increased food for those who were good at it would provide a reproductive advantage. So, strong arms, good throwing movement mechanics and so forth would be selected for, but so would purely intellectual skills like being able to accurately predict trajectories so as to hit things more often.
How does this relate to mystic beliefs? I propose it is an out growth, a neutral effect, of another very useful skill. When early hominids were observing the world they would see that, for instance, group members sometimes became sick. They could further observe that whenever a certain plant was eaten (this is a highly simplified example) the sickness occurred. Those who were better at seeing the causal relationship would have a survival advantage.
The ability to determine causal relationships is very useful and confers many survival advantages. So, we as humans are evolved to be good at seeing causal relationships in the world around us. We are, in effect, trained by evolution (in a manner of speaking) to look for causality.
Humans are also evolved to look for and easily recognize human faces. Being able to quickly pick out our own kin and read expressions on faces is of clear advantage. The side effect of this is that we see faces all the time where they aren't, because humans are good at seeing and filling in familiar patterns. Faces seen in clouds or rock formations, like the so called face on Mars, are an example of this.
So, since seeing causal relations has been selected for, we, like when we see faces where there are none, see causal relations in nature where none actually exist. Especially when the causation is, at the time, unknowable, the evolved drive to seek and understand things spills over and a causation is invented. Humans find that satisfying.
We are also evolved to believe our elders, because the passing on of knowledge from generation to generation is essential to survival. That's why, when our elders tell us that the thunder is the wheels on Thor's chariot, our need to seek causation is fulfilled and the false causation is propagated.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 44 of 91 (167790)
12-13-2004 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Fishbone79
12-13-2004 4:31 PM


Behavior at EvC
You suggested in an earlier post that you may be banned.
You are very close to being restricted to the boot camp untill you learn some manners.
Just one more post with a bad attitude and you're there!

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 91 (167793)
12-13-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AdminNosy
12-13-2004 5:15 PM


Re: Behavior at EvC
I have suspended Fishbone's posting privileges for 24 hours to give him time to consider his behaviour.

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