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Author Topic:   Questions on Evolution.
CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 43 (168115)
12-14-2004 1:23 PM


Sorry if these topics have been covered elsewhere, I searched but had no luck.

1. How long do we think that evolution took, from the first "life" to our current state.

2. I know a lot of Creationists like to throw around the improbability of Evolution. Now, I'm not saying that improbability disprooves Evo, but how intellectually honest is the claim that Evo is improbable. Please, don't go into how just becuase it's improbable doesn't mean it coldn't happen, I'm just wondering if it was indeed improbable.

3. Are there fossil records of overlap, lower forms and higher forms existing together.

4. Why don't we have tails? Please, don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong, but our Evo tree comes from Chimps, right? If so, why did we loose our tails.

So, I'm looking for answers, not trying to bring down Evo.

{Added blank lines - Adminnemooseus}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-14-2004 01:39 PM


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 43 (168186)
12-14-2004 4:13 PM


Thanks for the quick answers. My bad about the Chimp thing. So can we give a rough estimate to the improbability of evolution?

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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 43 (168200)
12-14-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NosyNed
12-14-2004 4:22 PM


Re: improbablity of what
Well, my point is that if the entire evo process took Approx 3.5 billion years, and the earth has been around for what 4-4.5 billion years then the universe must be rolling it's dice really well. and heck, who knows if the planet was favorable for the rise of Evo during that whole time. (pre the 3.5 bill years).

To me, it seems to come down to a matter of faith. I mean, evolution is still theory. We're not completely sure. Jump me if you want, but that's how I see it. Fine there's a lot of evidence, but we're not completely sure.

If you can convince me otherwise, by all means go ahead. Just because I have this opinion now, doesn't mean that I'm closed minded.

Edit:
and lam, thanks for the intellectually cloaked, you're a dumbass remark.

This message has been edited by CreepingTerror, 12-14-2004 04:40 PM


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 43 (168294)
12-14-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by coffee_addict
12-14-2004 6:23 PM


Re: improbablity of what
Fair enough, the good traits do get passed on. But that doesn't change the fact that the chances of a mutation having a beneficial effect are extremely low. So fine, you roll a D10**10 and set it aside everytime you get pi. That's still a lot of roles(I think I'm exagerating, but you get the point).
And as just as unlikely (I'll admit some ignorance on both of these topics) is the perfect combination of molecules to give rise to life. Which leads me to another question. Have scientists been able to replicate this process (molecules to amino acids to life)to any extent. I vaguely remember hearing that they had, but I'm not sure.
And I'm not even sure if that's the right chain.

And in reply to what CrashFrog said, saying that Evo is the best theory is like saying that I am the best Scott Heyer who lives at 359 Allegretto Cres in Saskatoon. What other scientifically viable theories are there that contradict Evo.


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 43 (168340)
12-15-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rrhain
12-14-2004 11:59 PM


Re: improbablity of what
Well, that was a long read. Good post, except for the part where you told me to shut up because I'm not as smart as you. It's a good thing that everyone doesn't apply to your thinking, or no one would learn anything. Just so I'm not open to the interpretation that I am trying to tell everyone that they are wrong, and that I am not trying to learn: What are some examples of speciation in a laboratory, not saying it can't happen mind you, just I'd like to know what they are.

And I wasn't trying to tell everyone that they're wrong, nor was I saying that my opinion is the best, I'm just trying to learn here.


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 43 (168343)
12-15-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by coffee_addict
12-15-2004 12:31 AM


Re: improbablity of what
I'm sure I'm probably beating a dead horse, but is there a difference between micro and macro evolution. Is it harder to change "species" or does it just require more time?

Edit: I suppose that's not the clearest thing to say. What I mean is, is it harder to go from reptile to bird, than it is for bacteria to develope immunity, or does it just require more time.

This message has been edited by CreepingTerror, 12-15-2004 12:38 AM


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 43 (168366)
12-15-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by NosyNed
12-15-2004 12:49 AM


Re: improbablity of what
Apologies, I read to much into that. I think my mind is trying desperately to hold on to the beliefs that I've had my whole life. Ugh, the funny thing is that I thought that I was open minded about this whole thing. The problem that we as fundamentalists have with the whole Evolution side of things is that almost all of us see it as a direct attack on our faith, that God didn't create the universe, an idea reinforced by the fact that evolution has been a secular institution for a very long time, and most of the proponents of it are athiests or agnostics, or whatever people say when they don't believe in God.

Anyways. I apologize for being short. And by the way Lam, I never said it wasn't enough, I was just interested in the examples.


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 43 (168382)
12-15-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by coffee_addict
12-15-2004 1:23 AM


Re: improbablity of what
WOAH WOAH WOAH. Easy there. I was not saying that Evolution is against christianity, nor was I saying that It was a completely secular thing. It is a secular institution though, not a christian one, and if my most was to all encompassing for you I apologize. But I was saying that, and I quote "almost all of us see it as a direct attack on our faith" we see it as, not that it is. Sorry if I didn't communicate that.

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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 43 (168387)
12-15-2004 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by NosyNed
12-15-2004 1:25 AM


Re: Difficult for you
I guess I should say that I believe in the book and I worship God. My faith in God has not yet been shaken, even though I am re-assessing creation. I have never believed that Genesis was a literal story, and I have NEVER cowered in fear from knowledge. You imply that every Fundamentalist that disagrees with evolution knows the facts, but refuses to accept them. I'd say that all most people know is that Evolution is the antithesis (Most certainly not saying that it is) of Creation and God, and having faith in God, and possibly not caring so much how we got here, accept it.

I mean look at the title of this web site. "Creation vs Evolution" A creationist comes in here under the immediate assumption that he will have to defend his views that God created everything against evolutionists. It's saying things like fundamentalists are afraid of the truth that make them come in here and defend their faith. You may not think it, but you are attacking a vast majority of christians directly when you say that kind of stuff.

If you wouldn't mind, Ned, when you say you are an Atheist, what do you mean. If you'd rather not get into it, then fair enough.

And to Lam, I'd have to say that there were deeper issues involved in the whole "the earth is the center and we're right thing". Myself, I'm Pentacostal, and my roots come from people that split off from the church of that time, mainly due to tranlation problems with the . The root problem is that the Catholic church of the time saw their interpretation of scripture was right, that they should be the only ones to have access to the bible(hence the latin bible, very few people could read latin).

And just in case I am getting this horribly wrong, would someone toss out a definition of a fundamentalist please.


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CreepingTerror
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 43 (168437)
12-15-2004 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by coffee_addict
12-15-2004 1:59 AM


Re: Difficult for you
Fine, be that way. From what I've gathered, "fundies" are any, and I'll stay within Christianity here, who have a greater belief in their faith than in the Theory that they see as a direct attack on them. Also most likely the ones that participate in main stream, conservative christianity.

I find it amusing that you guys call "religious people who argue against Evo" fundies. I mean, since when is the literal God created the world in 6 days a fundamental belief of Christianity. I wouldn't get kicked out of my denomination if I started saying that God used Evo to create the world.

It's comments like "Like pornography, I'll know a fundy when I see one", "Truth is secular"(Read: all religion is a lie) and the general, undercurrent that fundies are evil, dishonest, stupid people that represent all that is wrong in the world, that make them rail against you.

I'm sure you hate it when "fundies" bring up darwin, and use him to argue against your theory. It's no different than characterising the fundamentalists that come in here as Dark Ages religious dictators.

and Rrhain, please read the subsequant posts before you decide to argue what I've said. You'll notice that I said that I misread what you said, and apologised.
Edit: Which, on looking back, would be hard to notice, now that the admin post that I replied to is gone.

This message has been edited by CreepingTerror, 12-15-2004 09:39 AM


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