Purple dosn't beleve in relativity

Purple Yokuo Says he dosn't think relativity is valid I challenge him to support his claim.

I Think he first makes the claim on this pagehttp://EvC Forum: Spirits and other incorporial things -->EvC Forum: Spirits and other incorporial thingsWith messege 116: Hopefully we can go into it here.Also here on this page:http://EvC Forum: Spirits and other incorporial things -->EvC Forum: Spirits and other incorporial thingsIn post 123: Even though neither of us is qualified to discuss the mathamatics in depth, I think we can have a useful discussion about evedence supporting the theory as well as his objections.{Links pretty good - You did give the message numbers. I added the "#116" and "#123" to the links. That will get you directly to the messages. Will promote topic now. - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-07-2004 02:48 AM

You are exactly RIGHT when you say that two observers, moving relative to eachother, will think they observe the others time dialation.(I'm sure that many science writers have published other versions of what follows but I wanted to write my own.)I like to use little story examples to help me undertand tricky concepts like relativity. Here's one I made up that expalins the phenominon you discussed:Zorg and Viola are two robots in their own identical, super advanced, spaceships. They each pull their own spaceship up next to the others so they can chat. Suddenly, one of the spaceships accelarates away from the other. Because of the intense magnetic feild that their engines produce while accelarating, both robots are temporaraly rendered unconcious.When the robots come to, they see their frends ship drifting away at a constant velocity. They want to know which ship malfucntioned and accelarated (They have no eternal points of reference like stars etc).Viola looks out her window and sees Zorgs ship moving away.Because he is moving away, relative to her, his ship undergoes redshift, when she hails him on her radio his voice sounds slow, low and drawn out as the signal is distorted by the very same doppler effect. In fact every test Viola can think to preform seems to suggest that time ITSELF is moving slower for Zorg.Viola knows about realtivity and time dialation so she thinks "Aha! It must have been Zorg that accelarated." She resones that she doesn't need to fix her ship.HOWEVER the situation is IDENTICAL from Zorgs point of veiw. He sees violas redshift, hears her voice coming slowly out of the radio, sees that the giant grandfater clock on the outside of viola's ship is moving slower than his etc etc. And comes to the SAME conclution!Silly robots! They should know better if they want to be flying around through space.So without a point of reference BOTH observers see the other as moving more slowly through time.So, how can you confirm witch one is "realy" moving? YOU CAN'T (without another external frame of reference). That's part of what is so weird!Even if Zorg says "alright I'm going to put an end to this foolishness" and blasts towards viola at top speed. His apparent "youngness" when he arrives will be explained by the dialation he underwent accelarating towards Viola. I'll tell you what your problem is! It's that it (relativity) is so completly counter intuitive! We NEVER observe this phenomina in our daily lives, (though it still happens). When my roomate and I drive a cassorole over to our frends house, our frend doesn't remark on how much warmer our cassorole is than the identical one she made at exsactly the same time!When I play a game of tennis (not that I ever actualy play tennis) I don't notice how much "younger" the ball I played with is than the ones I left in the can. BUT THE BALL AND THE CASSOROLE ARE YOUNGER, we just can't observe that fact unless we work with particle accelarators.We almost ALWAYS have external fraims of reference that are, from our perspective, unchanging so it's perfectly natural for us to rail against the idea of a universe where all frames of reference are eaquly valid. But that doesn't mean that our initial perceptions are right.Your "Personal" problem with relativity isn't personal at all, all humans share it! Why? Becase we have evolved in an enviornment where things move at miniscule fractions of the speed of light.This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-08-2004 04:55 AM

I've gone through a few drafts of this post and I think the best way to explain it is to use yet another story.Ok so Zorg and Viola are drifting away from eachother and both of them see the other as moving slower through time. When Zorg says he has "had enough" and accelarates towards Violas ship.When Zorg turns his ship around and acccelerates back TOWARDS Viola what does he see? Does he see time dialation? Yes he does but she seems to be moving through time FASTER than him.As he approaches her ship on his return trip he sees her undergo BLUEshift, Her voice sounds HIGHpitched and squeaky on the radio (due to the same doppler effect etc. When he finaly pulls up to a stop next to her ship she is OLDER than him (slightly more rusted etc.).The exact same thing happens in the classical twin paradox. The only difference is that instead of two ships, witch we tend to view as symetrical, they use something we tend to think of as relatively stationary (the earth) and something we think of as non-Stationary (the accelarating ship).

Yeah The animation shows very well how it works.Added by edit: in praticular look at the seeming flurry of responces from Joe, in Janes perspective after she turns around.This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-09-2004 09:50 PMThis message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-09-2004 09:51 PM

Here is the soulution to the "pole in the barn problem" from the site that Lam found.redirect

What about someone in the center of a massive object (like the earth)? It's 0g so there should be no dialation right?What about someone in the center of mass between two nutron stars orbiting eachother? (I think frame dragging might influence this one) the net is still 0g's or am I making a mistake somewhere?This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-10-2004 06:05 AM

Yeah, see that was why I called it the "bottom of the well". So Space time IS streached is that right?By the way the center of mass between two stars (or any objects) orbiting eachother is called the Barycenter.This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-10-2004 06:23 PM

Of course it doesn't matter how many G's you experince!Think about something falling. It is still affected by a gravitational feild and time STILL slows down right?Anything that is falling experences 0g's (just like objects in a barycenter or center of mass) but is stil subject to time dialation!Even something falling into a black hole would experence 0 g's (though the horrible streaching might count as g forces) but we know time still slows down!This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-10-2004 06:29 PM

Right but even if somthing is in the barycenter space is still streached out. Or to use your metaphore, the matress is still lower.This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 12-12-2004 05:17 PM

Well the original metaphore was of a rubbber sheet witch would become thinner and more streached out... Like butter scraped over too much bread, I'm old Gandalf.Woah, sorry.So are we done? Reletivity is hard to understand, granted, but it makes predictions that we have EXTENSIVELY tested and found to be accurate.Just becase it's confusing and weird doesn't make it wrong.

Yeah the analogy breaks down. It's only an analogy, it's not meant to be taken purely literaly. It's not even in 3 dimentions. Yes. I believe as you approach the speed of light the stars seem to "collect" in front of you as you go faster and faster (it doesn't matter about the accelaration only the relative speed).Soon it gets to the point where you can only see one bright spot in front of you, and darkness behind. I'm sure there is a website where you can see a diagram of this. Both can be measured. They are both "real".By the way Welcome to the forum.

First of all the milky way DOES appear to be in the center of our hubble volume (meaning observable universe) ALL the other galaxys seem to be moving away from US at increasing speed depending on their distance.This is due to the fact that space itself is expanding.I do not understand your question about their time being compressed relative to us, please elaborate.