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Author Topic:   Idiocy of the most amusing kind.....
joz
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 91 (16793)
09-06-2002 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mark24
09-02-2002 5:05 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
Tok,

Haven't seen Joz post here for a while, unfortunately.

Mark


Been looking for a new job m8 been too busy...

I have been checking in from time to time (noticed the lovely JP banning) just been too busy too say much....

Hey bud Spurs are at the top of the table Booyah......

Probably be back sometime soon....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mark24, posted 09-02-2002 5:05 AM mark24 has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 91 (16797)
09-06-2002 2:51 PM


BTW Mark hows the Galactic Goat doing? (Note the capital G`s because its *the* Goat not just a goat)......
Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mark24, posted 09-07-2002 12:10 PM joz has not yet responded

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4354 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 33 of 91 (16817)
09-06-2002 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tokyojim
09-02-2002 2:43 AM


Dear Tokyojim;

I have to agree with Joz on this one. The Bible never refers to Jesus as the creator. John 1:1 is translated differently by different translations, my favorite is 'he was like God.' which is what John was saying as shown by the context. In any case using wording favored by some translators, but not others, is poor support for a doctrine. The Bible is clear that Jesus is the first born of creation, the beginning of creation by God, not the creator. Even if you follow the trinity doctrine, it is improper to refer to the 'God Head' or the creator as Jesus, just as it is incorrect to call Jesus the holy spirit. Yes this is certainly a case of some very bad theology since that would indeed leave only answer 4 which is hardy the target they were aiming for. They should have read Palms 83:18 in the old KJV, pretty shameful that as Christians they don't even know the name of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tokyojim, posted 09-02-2002 2:43 AM Tokyojim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tokyojim, posted 11-04-2002 9:39 AM wmscott has responded

    
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 91 (16856)
09-07-2002 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Mammuthus
09-06-2002 5:16 AM


I see your point. It is my opinion that precepts like morality, integrity, kindness, etc., are an intellectual undertaking rather than a religious or scientific one. Each of us has to gain the insight that to build is good and to destroy is bad. Religions are, for practical purposes, universally bad at this. However, many people need some component to life that they see as in a "higher plane of existence" to remind them to be kind and moral every day. Some other people don't. Hope I am one of them. The reason to build rather than destroy is axiomatic. It is its own fundamental reason. Philosophy discussions would do just fine for the people who have the insight.

What about the people who need to be reminded every day? Perhaps religion has too much baggage to meed people's needs. How do we get to this next step?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Mammuthus, posted 09-06-2002 5:16 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3301 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 35 of 91 (16857)
09-07-2002 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by joz
09-06-2002 2:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
BTW Mark hows the Galactic Goat doing? (Note the capital G`s because its *the* Goat not just a goat)......

Hey, Joz, O'll buddy

I've missed your input, mate. I still haven't managed to convince anyone that the GG created the universe. Strange, I'm using exactly the same evidentiary standards?

Anyway, good luck on the job front.

Cheers,

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3139 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 36 of 91 (21109)
10-30-2002 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
07-14-2002 11:35 PM


That is some bullet list.
This message is a reply to:
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Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 91 (21514)
11-04-2002 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by wmscott
09-06-2002 8:46 PM


Dear Mr. Scott,
Sorry, I havenft checked in on this thread for a while. I would like to ask you for some clarification on your statement above. You say that your favorite translation is ghe was like Godh. I respect your opinion, but what is important is not which translation is someonefs favorite, but which one is correct. Of course, determining this is not always 100% possible, but the important thing in accurate interpretation is understanding what the author meant. It seems that you understand this because you said the context shows that this is what John meant. Can you please elaborate on that for me? I'd like to hear your reasoning for that statement. How does the context show that the best translation is "he was like God"?
I know the Jehovah's Witnesses are big on this verse and try very hard to make this verse say that Jesus is not God. Their whole theology stands upon that interpretation so not only here, but many places in Scripture, they have to make a lot of unwarranted interpretations. I'm just interested in what your reasoning is for the statement you made. Thanks.

Tokyojim


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by wmscott, posted 09-06-2002 8:46 PM wmscott has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 91 (21531)
11-04-2002 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by axial soliton
09-05-2002 5:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by axial soliton:
This is not difficult. Christianity suppressed science and oppressed scientists through the Dark Ages and for as long as it could control education and information. An example among many :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/319712.stm

Hi Axial,
I've gotten a bit weary of the boards and took a little break. Sorry I didn't get back to you. I did after all ask you a question. Anyway, I looked at the link you suggested. The old Galileo and Copernican issue. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church was involved in this and did seek to stop Copernicus from publishing his new views. The church made a mistake here. This incident has become convenient "proof" that science, not the Church, should be trusted. And yet even if it did happen exactly like it is claimed, it still doesn't mean that science will always be right. We forget that scientists are humans, fallible, prejudiced, and often times, blinded by their own worldview. When it comes to everyday science, science that can be demonstrated and tested in the laboratory every day by anyone, then science can be trusted. But when it comes to the science of history, the science of origins, it is not so trustworthy.

However, the main disagreement I have with your reply is this: I disagree with you that Christianity suppressed science. In general, I think the opposite was the case. In general. I'm taking some of my ideas here from a book by Dr. James Kennedy entitled What If Jesus Had Never Come?.

In fact, the Christian worldview in combination with the Greek mind is responsible for the birth of modern day science. The Greeks got the process started, but only took it so far. Where does Christianity come into play here? Well, there were several factors that positively influenced scientific inquiry and research. First, the idea that there is a rational God who is behind the creation. He is the source of all truth. It meant that the world is a rational world and has order and design. It meant that it could be studied and understood. It meant that God is the origin of scientific laws and as Scripture says who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 12:3

Then there is the command that God gave to mankind to fill and subdue the earth. He appointed us as caretakers and the world was here for our good as well as for God's glory. We have been given not only the authority but the responsibility to understand and care for the earth. It was created for us to live in and enjoy among other reasons and in it we see God's glory.

Even Francis Bacon who is credited for developing the scientific method was a strong believer. He said "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power." Scripture is first, but the volume of the Creatures is also there for our benefit. Modern man has thrown out the first book and henceforth has made amny wrong interpretations of the second book.

As you know, many of the early scientists who made great scientific discoveries were Christians who believed in God's Word. It is funny, but their belief in the Bible didn't seem to hinder their scientific work. You would never guess that a Christian could actually do any scientically worthwhile research if you listened to many people today who belittle anyone who claims to be a scientist and actually believe in the Bible. But whether we hold to a naturalistic worldview or a Judeochristian worldview, that will influence the way we interpret scientific observations. In that sense, there is no such thing as an unbiased scientist. So if Christians are disqualified on the basis of their worldview, then it follows logically that everyone else must also be disqualified as well.

quote:
AXIAL continues:
Christianity wanted to be the institution to tell people how to live in the world around them and control what they did and how they did it.

TJ replies:
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church may have fallen prey to that in the past. However, you forget that God gives us authority in the Bible to tell people how they should live. That is not a bad thing. We need that kind of moral guidance since we are sinners and all have a tendancy to first of all go our own way. God's moral law really isn't such a bad thing. Just imagine how much better off the world would be if we all followed just the last 6 commandments of Moses' 10 commandments!! God's laws are all given out of love. He loves us and wants us to know how to live a fulfilling life. He wants to protect us from making mistakes that will harm us and others. He gives us moral direction because He loves us. Either His Word is true and the commands are binding or the Bible is false and the commands are a bunch of man-made lies.

Of course we all have a free will and do not have to live like the Bible says, but then when we suffer the consequences, we cannot complain. We humans want our freedom, but then when we suffer the consequences of sin, we long for the protection that God's moral law would have provided for us. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

quote:
Axial continues:
Control means power and money. Now, science is superbly providing information to people on how to live in the world around them and getting better at it all the time. And, science does not have the control and ego baggage.

TJ replies:
Axial, it is not Christianity as such, but individual Christians who got their priorities mixed up. No Christian is perfect. Power and money corrupted the Roman Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. It has brought a bad name on Christianity. Jesus is always the one who we follow. If we follow people, we will always be disappointed. That is why we are told to keep our eyes on Jesus. Of course we are also told to live out our faith and not to be a hypocrite, but no one is perfect. Hopefully there is a growing trend towards holiness in our life, but until we get to heaven, we will always struggle with sin, pride, selfishness, bad attitudes, etc.

I have to take issue with you on this statement: "science does not have the control and ego baggage. " That is just not true. In a perfect world, you could say that, but you forget that scientists too are sinners. They want fame. They want their names in the limelight. They want the money for future grants. They want the respect that comes with discoveries. In fact, some want it so much that they falsify things on purpose. The examples that could be given are numerous. Take Ernst Haeckl or the guy who did the famed Peppered Moth experiment, or a recent example here is Japan is of an archaeologist who faked some of his archaeological finds. How about Piltdown Man, etc. Pride is very much involved and science in the area of origins is not nearly as unbiased as you might want to believe. The examples are many.

quote:
Axial continues:
Why does Christianity feel it necessary to compete with science on technology?

The bible is not a very good technology book. Why is Christianity even in the business of technology?


TJ replies:
I'm not sure what you mean here by Christianity competing with science on technology. Christianity is not in the business of technology. However, the Bible presents us with a comprehensive worldview for life. It is not a science textbook, but when it touches on science it is accurate. Christianity is a worldview that is not disconnected from reality like most other religions. Buddhism here in Japan is hardly concerned with truth at all. But Christianity is. It stands and falls on it being historical truth. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a fairy tale and has no value whatsoever. It claims to be true. It claims to be the Word of God. If we can't believe the Bible in the areas that it can be verified, then how are we supposed to believe the Bible in the areas that we cannot verify - all the spiritual truths taught about sin, heaven, etc. So we are not about to give away any ground to atheistic scientists or to allow them to try and relegate Christianity to just the religious or moral realm of life. No, we believe it is truth. God is the only one who knows how the world really did come into existence. He is the only eyewitness, and the Bible gives us the account of the only eyewitness. Scientists these days start off by eliminating God from the picture in the very beginning and then try and explain the world. No wonder they struggle so much!! Their presuppositions are wrong. ANd it is not going to get any better for members of the First Church of Evolution.

quote:
Axial continues:
What we need is a strong philosophical institution to maintain and improve things like integrity, kindness, and morality. Maybe after the Church's present morality crisis, it can step up to that role. This is the point that needs to be stressed. Technology is not the same as philosophy. People need both.We need our religions to teach kindness.

TJ replies:
You are right in saying that technology is not the same as philosophy. But the problem of finding a strong philosophical institution to improve things is not so simple if we are all sinners at heart. And the Church can never fill that role unless people recognize the Bible as true. Otherwise, why believe and follow what the Church says? Who cares? There is no such thing as true sin since there is no god and then it follows that there is no judgment for "sin" or accountability for how I lived my life after death, so I am free. But that is a whole other issue.

At least I am glad to see that you don't see science and technology as the savior of the world. Science too needs controls put on it or we're going to be growing humans to clone organs for ourselves in the not too distant future. Science is not good or bad in and of itself, but it certainly has the potential to be used for positive purposes or for harmful purposes. You can't relegate Christianity to the area of philosophy(meaning it is not really true in real life) and then expect people to really follow what it says in the moral area of life.

Also, and this is a biggie, I think you are forgetting that science itself is based on certain philosophical presuppositions. Nice try, but you can't divorce science from philosophy.

Regards,

Tokyojim

[Fixed quoting. --Admin]

[This message has been edited by Admin, 11-04-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by axial soliton, posted 09-05-2002 5:15 PM axial soliton has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by doctrbill, posted 11-07-2002 9:34 PM Tokyojim has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 870 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 39 of 91 (21811)
11-07-2002 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tokyojim
11-04-2002 11:30 AM


quote:
Originally posted by tokyojim: Francis Bacon ... said "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power." Scripture is first, but the volume of the Creatures is also there for our benefit. Modern man has thrown out the first book and henceforth has made amny wrong interpretations of the second book.

Francis had it wrong.

Nature came first, and is not a book.

The Bible came Much Much later, was written by Jews, and is hotly contested vis a vis its meaning.

quote:
tokyojim - Just imagine how much better off the world would be if we all followed just the last 6 commandments of Moses' 10 commandments!!

Why just the last 6 TJ? Why not the whole maryanne?

quote:
TJ - ... the Bible presents us with a comprehensive worldview ... when it touches on science it is accurate.

Have you actually read the first chapter of Genesis? Do you really know what it says?

quote:
TJ - It [the Bible] claims to be true. It claims to be the Word of God.

Please cite chapter and verse to support this assertion.

quote:
TJ - God is the only one who knows how the world really did come into existence.

The author of Genesis certainly didn't know.

quote:

TJ - He is the only eyewitness, and the Bible gives us the account of the only eyewitness.

Please demonstrate how you arrive at this conclusion, and please do so without rewriting the narrative.

quote:

TJ - Scientists these days start off by eliminating God from the picture in the very beginning and then try and explain the world.

Which scientists? You wax eloquent but multiply tenuous assertions.

quote:
TJ - No wonder they struggle so much!! Their presuppositions are wrong.

I always presupposed that God created the universe, so how did I become persuaded otherwise? Have you the slightest clue?

quote:

TJ - ANd it is not going to get any better for members of the First Church of Evolution.

Ok. I get it. You are spinning a fantasy. Well, that's ok, but we are not the choir. Some of us would like to hear that legendary RCC intellect at work here. I know priests in good and regular standing who teach evolution in Catholic Schools.

quote:

TJ - ... the problem of finding a strong philosophical institution to improve things is not so simple ... And the Church can never fill that role unless people recognize the Bible as true. Otherwise, why believe and follow what the Church says? Who cares?

People follow what rings true for them. Church doctrine still rings true for many people. Mostly the poor and ignorant in third-world countries.

quote:

TJ - There is no such thing as true sin since there is no god and then it follows that there is no judgment for "sin" or accountability for how I lived ...

Have you no faith in humanity? You will live your life within the prescribed bounds of the laws of your country, or you will verily be judged and held accountable.

quote:

TJ - ... my life after death, so I am free. But that is a whole other issue.

No kidding! Another fantasy for our entertainment. Oh, yes, I love a scary story!

quote:

TJ - Science too needs controls put on it or we're going to be growing humans to clone organs for ourselves in the not too distant future.

Nah. We'll just grow the organs.

quote:

TJ - You can't relegate Christianity to the area of philosophy(meaning it is not really true in real life) and then expect people to really follow what it says in the moral area of life.

Philosophy is NOT TRUE in real life?

I believe you just shot yourself in the foot.

Nice homily you bring, but not much of an argument.

db

-------------------------------
Creationism Evolves


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tokyojim, posted 11-04-2002 11:30 AM Tokyojim has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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doinker
Unregistered


Message 40 of 91 (21995)
11-09-2002 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joz
06-02-2002 1:12 AM


you are a complete idiot ! You will know the true God some day.
This message is a reply to:
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doinker
Unregistered


Message 41 of 91 (21998)
11-09-2002 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tokyojim
11-04-2002 9:39 AM


seems to me that all of you who dont know the one and only true god thru faith..ahumm your own faith.. which is weaker than a card made house, seem to find the time to detail your thoughts and comments knowing more about the bible than i do. i find that simply funny.
also.. that goofball who gave the inital joke about : who made the cow.. is a joke.. seriously a joke made to burr the christian followers of Jesus. Simply a weak mind made that joke up.. ALSO when all of you finish your laffable posts, and one day you meet the true God... you will find out too late for your souls, you waste your time debating and not believing.. try to look to the truth.. and the truth is the word of God.. thru faith you believe..not debate.
GROW UP YOU MEN OF WORLDLY THOUGHTS. Even the faith of a child is able to believe. But you few seem to want to add weights to your thoughts to enable you to be rewarded wordly by other men by expressing your foolish thoughts and untruthfull finds by other mens
foolish writtings or lies..and you choose to believe them..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tokyojim, posted 11-04-2002 9:39 AM Tokyojim has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 44 by TrueCreation, posted 11-09-2002 2:26 PM You have responded

    
gene90
Member (Idle past 1929 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 42 of 91 (21999)
11-09-2002 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by doinker
11-09-2002 1:40 PM


This is typical of the arrogance so frequently displayed by fundamentalist self-professed "Christians".
This message is a reply to:
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doinker
Unregistered


Message 43 of 91 (22003)
11-09-2002 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
07-14-2002 11:35 PM


all i can say to that post...is: lots and lots of big words.. but i understood it... lol... my comment is this: i do not post to fancy anyones mindset on any topic in review; i do like to say this :
LAUGHING MY HEAD OFF!
i have really got to get myself some new boxing gloves.. and fancy a drink of ale...lol..these post are better than watching donald duck run into a wall he has already spied before he decided to run into it.
by the wayward soul...btw...ya'll scare me !
have a good day... ahhh entertainment at its best..evolution vs. creationism.. lol. to string this topic on and on to aphelion is beyond me.. someone tell me what is to gain with this childish bickering.. please post soon ..sheesh.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by TrueCreation, posted 11-09-2002 2:28 PM You have responded
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 91 (22008)
11-09-2002 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by doinker
11-09-2002 1:40 PM


"seems to me that all of you who dont know the one and only true god thru faith..ahumm your own faith.. which is weaker than a card made house, seem to find the time to detail your thoughts and comments knowing more about the bible than i do. i find that simply funny.
also.. that goofball who gave the inital joke about : who made the cow.. is a joke.. seriously a joke made to burr the christian followers of Jesus. Simply a weak mind made that joke up.. ALSO when all of you finish your laffable posts, and one day you meet the true God... you will find out too late for your souls, you waste your time debating and not believing.. try to look to the truth.. and the truth is the word of God.. thru faith you believe..not debate.
GROW UP YOU MEN OF WORLDLY THOUGHTS. Even the faith of a child is able to believe. But you few seem to want to add weights to your thoughts to enable you to be rewarded wordly by other men by expressing your foolish thoughts and untruthfull finds by other mens
foolish writtings or lies..and you choose to believe them.. "
--At least my faith grows and prospers upon objectivity. Your subjective emotionally weighted mind-set is something I do not carry. Prov. 18:2, 'A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own opinion.' Prov. 14:15, 'The simple believes every word, but the man of insight makes sure where he is going'.
--'Doinker', Your pre-teen quibbles & personal incredulity suffices ignorance.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 91 (22009)
11-09-2002 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by doinker
11-09-2002 2:03 PM


"someone tell me what is to gain with this childish bickering.. please post soon ..sheesh. "
--I don't know, this 'childish bickering' didn't start untill you started posting. Also, this is the 'free for all' forum, so your going to get flames flying all over the place, but I have yet to see much of that 'childish bickering'.

------------------

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 11-09-2002]

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 11-09-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by doinker, posted 11-09-2002 2:03 PM doinker has responded

Replies to this message:
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