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Author Topic:   Why I am creationist
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 210 (169473)
12-17-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by AdminNosy
12-17-2004 3:13 PM


Re: Getting off Topic
OK, I'll begin by commenting generally on the reasons positted in message 3 of said thread.
First let me say I believe it starts with a question of what we trust. I trust the Bible as trustworthy and many scientists here trust published scientific papers about fossil records as trust worthy. Either or both could theoretically be riddled with lies or false assumptions that led to an avalanche of more false assumptions.
quote:
For the first I'd say that the fossil record, the order of it and the relation between different parts of it is very convincing that evolution has occured.
I am not convinced that the fossil record is accurately interpreted as some scientists interpret it when they consider lower layers as older higher layers as newer and everything in between creating a nice continuum of age. I find the reports of what is found where to be riddled with dishonesty in some cases, and it leads me to believe that anybody positing the theory could be either dishonest or genuinely unaware of the truth. Why? Because I think the Bible is trustworthy. More so than secular scientists.
quote:
For the second, the correlation between the DNA of living things and the relationships shown in the fossil record is a very convincing reason to say that the theory of evolution is, in fact, the way in which the developments we see occured.
This is clearly subjective analysis of the data, and because I think the Bible is more trustworthy than secular scientists, I believe that truth is either misrepresented, or there is a way to explain what is in a way that does not conflict with the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by AdminNosy, posted 12-17-2004 3:13 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by tsig, posted 12-18-2004 3:33 AM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2004 10:28 AM Maestro232 has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 122 of 210 (169477)
12-17-2004 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 3:04 PM


Re: Stubborn?
But, just the same, if you are really, truly interested in why I think the whole of scientific data in general suggests a creator, I am willing to post an abbreviated statement here.
I for one am really truly interested in why you think this. However, I am unwilling to accept "general" or "abbreviated" statements in defense of your position. This is precisely the game creationists are ALWAYS playing. No, if you want to be convincing, let's do some specific examples - not vague generalities. I'm not looking for some bizarre metaphysical philosophical discussion. I personally find those as unutterably boring as watching paint crack and as intellectually fulfilling as clipping my dog's toenails. You want to argue science, then let's get to it.
I would like to draw your attention to this post wherein I lay out some of the basic lines of evidence for evolution drawn from biogeography. Please take either the specific examples from that post, or the examples mentioned in post 123 of that thread, and discuss - in detail and with specifics - why recourse to a supernatural provides a better explanation than evolution. I won't even require you to have "scientific papers" to support your claims - I know there aren't any. However, you must address the specific examples, and in sufficient depth so that your argument is at least logically tenable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 3:04 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:16 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 124 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:23 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 210 (169491)
12-17-2004 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Quetzal
12-17-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Stubborn?
It's pretty simplistic unfortunately.
I think that the whole of scientific observation has shown things decay and become more chaotic. The two theories are...
1. A creator made us and the world complete and perfect and we have witnessed decay over time
2. We and other things have become more orderly and sofisticated over time.
Option one just makes more sense to me. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Quetzal, posted 12-17-2004 3:36 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2004 10:29 AM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 151 by Quetzal, posted 12-18-2004 2:53 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 210 (169494)
12-17-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Quetzal
12-17-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Stubborn?
In fact, I'll be perfectly honest, I think the fact that people think such a complicated and ordered universe as ours could have come from a bang and some hydrogen (or whatever the theory is) is the most ludicrous illogical conclusion to make from scientific observation that I could possibly imagine!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Quetzal, posted 12-17-2004 3:36 PM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-17-2004 4:28 PM Maestro232 has replied
 Message 127 by Parasomnium, posted 12-17-2004 4:40 PM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 129 by CK, posted 12-17-2004 4:44 PM Maestro232 has replied
 Message 130 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2004 4:48 PM Maestro232 has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 210 (169498)
12-17-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Stubborn?
whatever the theory is
Does this statement tell you nothing about your position?
If you can't actually say what the theory is, then how do you know it's ludicrous and illogical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:23 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:34 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 210 (169504)
12-17-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dan Carroll
12-17-2004 4:28 PM


Re: Stubborn?
quote:
If you can't actually say what the theory is, then how do you know it's ludicrous and illogical?
Sorry, I can't keep up with popular science's latest changes on what they think happened. My fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-17-2004 4:28 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-17-2004 4:42 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 127 of 210 (169510)
12-17-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Stubborn?
Maestro232 writes:
I think the fact that people think such a complicated and ordered universe as ours could have come from a bang and some hydrogen (or whatever the theory is) is the most ludicrous illogical conclusion to make from scientific observation that I could possibly imagine!!
If you haven't even bothered to look at it in some detail - evidenced by "a bang and some hydrogen (or whatever the theory is)" - you have no reason to find any conclusion from it illogical.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:23 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 210 (169511)
12-17-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 4:34 PM


Re: Stubborn?
Sorry, I can't keep up with popular science's latest changes on what they think happened.
I love seeing someone take pride in an uninformed opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:34 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 129 of 210 (169512)
12-17-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Stubborn?
got ya - you've said in this and the other thread that you use logic (partly) as a guide.
I take on board what you are saying - I can see how logic would led you to believe that the universe must have created itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:23 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:07 PM CK has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 130 of 210 (169515)
12-17-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 4:23 PM


Your theory
I think that the whole of scientific observation has shown things decay and become more chaotic.
Well, since you use the phrase "scientific observation" it seems you are going to have some support for that.
It happens that you are wrong about this.
I think the fact that people think such a complicated and ordered universe as ours could have come from a bang and some hydrogen (or whatever the theory is) is the most ludicrous illogical conclusion to make from scientific observation that I could possibly imagine!!
You personal incredulity is hardly likely to convince anyone else is it?
You have two choices:
1) Live and let live. You may express you opinions on the matter whereever you like. You may not use this fallacy (personal incredulity) to support interfering in teaching.
2) You may chose to support this view with reasons and evidence.
(however, you don't seem to be strong on that approach do you? )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 4:23 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:01 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 135 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:09 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 210 (169520)
12-17-2004 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by NosyNed
12-17-2004 4:48 PM


Re: Your theory
I have plenty of reasons. Just no evidence beyond the beauty of the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2004 4:48 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2004 5:08 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 210 (169524)
12-17-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by CK
12-17-2004 4:44 PM


Re: Stubborn?
I'm not sure I understand Charles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by CK, posted 12-17-2004 4:44 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by CK, posted 12-17-2004 5:09 PM Maestro232 has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 133 of 210 (169525)
12-17-2004 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 5:01 PM


Reasons and beauty
I'm sure that people would be interested in how you reason from beauty to where ever you want to go.
It sounds like you're comfortable with your beliefs. That's fine with most of us then. I don't know why you'd bother posting here though. We already know there are lots of people who believe all sorts of things with no evidence or logical reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:01 PM Maestro232 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by CK, posted 12-17-2004 5:09 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 134 of 210 (169526)
12-17-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Maestro232
12-17-2004 5:07 PM


Re: Stubborn?
Well if logic leads you to belive that the universe was created - it must have created itself, right? The only other logical position is that it had a creator who had a creator who had a creator....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:07 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Maestro232, posted 12-17-2004 5:11 PM CK has replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 210 (169527)
12-17-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by NosyNed
12-17-2004 4:48 PM


Re: Your theory
Nosy,
Someone has got to step into this place every now and again and try to wake you guys up. God says you are without excuse. He uses sinful losers like me to sufficiently remind you that He is out their calling for you to recognize His omnipotence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2004 4:48 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-17-2004 5:22 PM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 142 by Parasomnium, posted 12-17-2004 5:41 PM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 146 by tsig, posted 12-18-2004 3:43 AM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 148 by sidelined, posted 12-18-2004 10:02 AM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 152 by jar, posted 12-18-2004 3:06 PM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 154 by mikehager, posted 12-20-2004 7:05 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
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