Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II.

RAZD,If we assume, for the purpose of investigation, that when God created the first trees they were created with tree rings already in place, how, if at all, would this affect your calculations of the minimum age of the earth by Bristlecone Pines?Please also temporarily ignore any errors that my have been due to false rings because, according to the Yale.edu Yale Forestry School:

If this was applied to ALL the many, many evidences for age then the change would be that the phrase:God has made it appear that...would have to be added in front of everything said. Since there would be no way to tell this from the age being "real" we could then either drop it as assumed and/or conclude that God is actually Loki the norse god of tricker and deceit.This particular approach is generally decried as very poor theology indeed.

So is respect the rule except when patience wears thin?

PaulK, The article was about cultured bacteria eating kerogen. This included all the different forms of carbon.The article said that it was thought kerogen carbon was bound, but this has now been proven false.They cultured the bacteria from old shale. To test their hypothesis, why would they fed it old decomposed kerogen devoid of carbon. This kerogen was the control in their lab experiment so it needed to be the only carbon source available for these bacteria. They found they assimulated carbon from kerogen in an anaerobic environment.If you want to believe they fed these bacteria old kerogen, it doesn't matter, the article said they assimulated the carbon from the kerogen. I don't think your saying they would be unable to assimulate C14, so were in agreement.I agree with you they were eating all the different forms of carbon, so this part would not affect the ratio of c14 to c12 as Loudmouth & Crashfrog explained previously.http://nai.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_detail.cfm?ID=87Scientists have long believed that kerogen was a carbon ‘sink’ – a place where carbon was trapped and could not be recycled. But recently, a team of researchers led by Steven Petsch of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) discovered that microorganisms in Kentucky's New Albany Shale are eating kerogen.

What age were Adam and Eve when God created them?Are you saying that the first trees didn't have rings?

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The article said that it was thought kerogen carbon was bound, but this has now been proven false.

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This is misleading. The article said that the carbon found in kerogen was not reentering the ecosystem. What they found was that the bacteria were putting the carbon back into the ecosystem by ingesting the kerogen.I don't know if you are admitting this or not, but this article on kerogen has no bearing on the dating of the leaves in Lake Suigetsu. So far you have yet to support your hypothesis that carbon dioxide or methane released by the anaerobic bacteria would in any way change the dates given to these leaves. You claim that carbonate is binding to the leaves, but as of yet I only have your conjecture as the sole piece of evidence.

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What age were Adam and Eve when God created them?

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Are you saying that the first trees didn't have rings?

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I think what Ned is trying to say is that it is an untestable, ad hoc hypothesis that makes God look like a trickster. It makes it look like God gave everything an appearance of age in order to fool us. Do you think God is a deciever? I could claim that the world was made last thursday and all our thoughts and memories have been implanted. Could you prove me wrong? Nope.

Actually, the only ones that would be tricked and be victims of deceit in this scenario would be anyone who tried to use dating systems that didn't take this into account. (Assuming, of course, that those things are true.)

Coragyps, I'm leaning Coragyps is onto something about possibly numerous fractionates. In an anerobic environment combustible gases are formed, this would include carbon fractionates. This bubbling upward of these gases would cause the varves of greater depth to have less C-14 in the leachate compared to the leachate in the varve above. This is how the closer to the surface in the anerobic environment on the bottom of Lake Suigetsu would actually date younger because greater C-14 concentrations would be in the leachate gases bubbling upward.If anerobic digestion didn't produce gas, then the ratio would never change upward, because without the gases there would be no way to transport carbon fractionate concentrations to bubble upward. This bubbling upward means greater C14 fractionate leachate concentrations in each varve moving to the surface.It would appear its because of the anaerobic nature that C-14 carbonates would form to permeate the entire leaf structure making it extremely difficult to decarbonate for dating. The C-12 carbon dioxide would be more of an acid that would not leave a residual. Likely to decarbonate the leaf one would have to use some form of acid to remove the carbonates.There likely are many different kinds of fractionates like magnesium carbonates, sodium carbonates. This is likely how fossils become mineralized. As these anaerobic bacteria decompose the fossil, the minerals in the forms of various carbonate fractionates cause the fossil to slowly be preserved as a mineralized remenant of the original fossil.It appears its these fractionates that are responsible for the straight proportional line suggesting an young earth in respect to agreeing with respective correlations of other like lakes undergoing similar anerobic digestion. Since C-12 tends to fractionate into Carbon dioxide (an acid) it wouldn't adhere to the leaf like C-13 or C-14 fractionates of calcium carbonate.The increasing C-14 concentrations that would result in the gases carrying these increased carbon concentrations upward would cause the higher varves to date younger than the varves in the lower core's sampled. This is supporting all the different lake correlations undergoing similar anaerobic natural processes to date similarly or to correlate one to the other.

Loudmouth, I got to leave for a bit, got dial up, and need my phone for bit. You see mineralized fossils is not this because of the different fractionate carbonates. Why would not this happen in respect to your leaf in an environment that included different fractionates of carbonates.

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You see mineralized fossils is not this because of the different fractionate carbonates. Why would not this happen in respect to your leaf in an environment that included different fractionates of carbonates.

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Because the leaf has not gone through fossilization. The carbon within the leaf has not been replaced by carbonate from the environment. Also, you have yet to show if there is even carbonate forming to any degree in either of the lakes in the study. You have also failed to mention how these altered varves could match ice cores and tree rings to such a high degree.

In the Lake Suigetsu study, only plant and insect materials were dated. Pore fluids or "leachates" would likely be worthless in this case, anyway, unless there were a way to very accurately quantify any sedimentary carbonate input, including the age of any such. Nonsensensical mishmash of words. Calcium carbonate with 14C acts essentially identical to that with 12C. And I'd bet a cold beer that every sample Kitagawa and van der Plicht teased out of those cores was, indeed, pretreated with dilute acid to remove any attached carbonate minerals, precisely because they could have been deposited by moving pore fluids.

there is no way to determine whether the universe was created whole within the last minute with the appearance of great age and tangible history, etcetera. nor can we go back and test it. this is the nature of the supernatural question.however, one would have to admit that such a creation was done with the intent to deceive and that this would be more in line with a jester god: loki\raven or the like.there is also no way to test for this type incident.but.if you want to go on evidence, then the only logical conclusion is that things in the past occured in the same manner as they occur now: there is no rational reason to pre-assume massive changes in the way things happen.certainly such an assumption would not be helpful for any creationist thinkers, for now you have a pre-creation set-up that does not allow for any disruption of the tree ring making process: no flood.enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

More C₁₄ would make the items test younger not older, but you have the problem of getting that gas carbon inside the dead samples with no method of transportation of carbon in and out of the specimen. It would just bubble on by.And if you could get the carbon in and out of the non-active dead samples, making the top layers younger would mean you could get a negative result ... none was found, while at the bottom you would have samples that would test much older (due to loss by the mystery bubble machine), and this too was not found. The test data show your vague concept to be falsified from the start.AND you still can't answer the problem of correlations of those samples not just with annual years, but with long term climate changed that also show up in other systems where C₁₄ is totally irrelevant. THAT is the problem of correlations that you as yet have failed to begin to address.These methods all agree on ages (that is one correlation)
These methods all agree on climate changes (that is a second correlation)This message has been edited by RAZD, 12-17-2004 10:00 PM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

There are many changes in climate that are known from history and from fairly recent pre-history. There was an even known as "the little ice age" and there was a period known as the "Younger Dryas" as well as some volcanic events that have left markers in many parts of the world.krakatoa: http://www.windows.ucar.edu/.../earth/interior/Krakatoa.html
Little Ice Age: http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/little_ice_age.html
Younger Dryas: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/transit.html

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This is a typical pattern of climate change against recent years. These changes in climate are also reflected in the growth of tree-rings (warmer years have longer growing months and fat summer ring patterns, while colder years have shorter growing months and skinny summer ring patterns). They are also reflected in the C₁₄ levels in the atmosphere, and so they also show up in correlation graphs of C₁₄ for things where the actual age is known.These methods match the years with the climate. This means that any proposition of any cause for the annual count \ age measurement to be off must also explain how it can cause the climate pattern to be faked at the same time.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}