Rrhain,
I was looking at threads on free will, and I came across yours coming from the "Christian God" perspective. I flipped through some of the posts, and I didn't see a satisfactory response. I wanted to get your opinion on the following line of reasoning. I'll quote two relevant messages just to try and make referencing easier for all.
Exodus 9:12: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
Exodus 10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Exodus 10:20: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 11:10: And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 14:4: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
Exodus 14:8: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.
Exodus 14:17: And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
Notice that it doesn't say that Pharaoh is just a stubborn guy who won't listen. God directly tells Noah that the reason Pharaoh won't listen is because god is going to directly, concsiously, deliberately, and purposefully harden Pharaoh's heart.
Now, my argument is going to be simple. It's clear from these passages that God doesn't say HOW he is going to harden the Pharaoh's heart. Now, assuming I know your definition of "messing with free will," it is your interpretation of the language that God will do this by messing the Pharaoh's free will. But I think you can't rule out other interpretations of the language, some of which either avoid God changing free will "directly," or change the meaning of free will.
What are these interpretations? Well, what do the following quotes mean to you?
A boss, speaking to a customer writes:
Sure, I'll have him do it in the morning.
A father, speaking with his teacher about his child writes:
He's not doing his homework? I had no idea. He'll do it from now on--I'll MAKE him do it
I think you get the idea. We use this kind of language all the time. I think it's a common device in movies and comedy. Certainly women are world-famous for this kind of manipulative behavior as well.
Now, clearly God has other means for "hardening the Pharaoh's heart" besides mystically manipulating his free will. Maybe God can conjure up some experiences for the Pharaoh, by manipulating physical situations, that causes the Pharaoh to lose faith in God. I don't think you can eliminate other avenues of manipulating feelings.
If that's right, then I think it's interesting to talk more about what "playing with free will" is. And maybe that was the point of your original post; I don't believe you ever defined what "playing with free will" means. Maybe we want to consider such manipulations to be "playing with free will."
If you want to go that path, that's an interesting path, but one that's not incompatible with your movie, my poor understanding of the bible, or how people interact in general. But I think it's important to show first that this path is available, and not just the path of some "mystical" manipulation of free will.
What do you think?
Thanks.
Ben
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