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Author Topic:   Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution)
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 31 of 178 (171005)
12-22-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jazzns
12-21-2004 12:02 AM


Jazzns responds to me:
quote:
Fair enough to be picky. From dictionary.com:
Um, dictionaries are descriptive, not proscriptive.
By this logic, the theory of evolution would be an "educated guess" simply because the dictionary defines "theory" as an educated guess. But, we know that when scientists talk about theories, they mean something much more intense: An analysis of a set of facts in order to explain them.
There is what the theists think "atheist" means and then there are what the atheists, themselves think. Since there are more theists than atheists, I am not surprised that the theistic definition of atheist shows up in the dictionary.
But shouldn't we defer to what the atheists think atheism is?
quote:
Lets go with this as a working definition?
No, let's not. That's the entire point: It's wrong. Atheists, by and large, are not people who have an active belief in the non-existence of god. Instead, they have no belief in the existence of god. That's the entire point behind atheism: To be without. If you have belief, then you're defeating the point.
quote:
In the minds of the people we are talking about it might be better to use atheist rather than other words we could choose to mean "not believing what they believe".
Who cares what theists think atheism is? They can't possibly understand what it's like. How do you explain color to a blind man? Even though they experience the exact same lack of belief regarding a thousand other things (Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Zeus, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc.), they cannot conceive of anybody who doesn't have belief when it comes to god.
Why do they get to be the arbiters of what atheism is? Shouldn't atheists be the final say? If they say they don't have belief, who are we to argue?
quote:
quote:
I know, but that is an important point. If you water down the word "religion" so much that anything is a religion, then you rob the word of any usefulness. Atheism stands apart from religion in that it has no tenets, no doctrine, no commandments, no pronouncements. It is defined by absence, not presence.
Right. That is exactly what I don't want to do.
So by the same token, you cannot water down atheism so that it is useless. If you define atheism as "anything that isn't quite like the particular brand of theism we're looking at," then it doesn't really mean anything.
quote:
I really just want to know why acceptance of evolution automatically denies ownership of other beliefs, namely Christianity, in the eyes of most Biblical Creationists.
The short answer, given my experience, is that evolution, since it is a science, does not invoke god. Since one of the tenets of Christianity is that god is always present in everything, they cannot accept the idea that something as important as the diversification of life, especially humans, might have taken place without god personally, deliberately, and consciously controlling every aspect of it.
They don't quite have this problem when it comes to other scientific fields like physics or chemistry because they aren't personal. The don't see the personal connection to god in dropping a plate because, well, a plate's an inanimate object. But start hinting that they came about because of mere biology and not because god kissed them lovingly before their creation and they go nuts because they have such an intense obsession regarding god.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 12-21-2004 12:02 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jazzns, posted 12-23-2004 1:27 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 32 of 178 (171010)
12-22-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PurpleYouko
12-22-2004 2:10 PM


Re: Evolution vs. creation
PurpleYouko writes:
quote:
If God created us then we didn't evolve and vice versa. How can it be any other way?
God can't create life that evolves?
Evolution does not concern itself with the origin of life just as chemistry does not concern itself with the origin of atoms. Instead, evolution concerns itself with how life behaves given that life exists just as chemistry concerns itself with how atoms behave given that atoms exist.
The origin of life is a very important question, but you won't find the answer to it in evolution.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-22-2004 2:10 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jazzns, posted 12-23-2004 1:34 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 35 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-23-2004 9:48 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 33 of 178 (171043)
12-23-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rrhain
12-22-2004 11:02 PM


I totally agree with everything you are saying Rrhain. I wish I could find a better word but that is the one that they are using to describe me and in the context they use the word it means the equivalent of heathen. Lets use heathen then shall we? Since they often put the negative connotation in what they say anyway it might only make sense to use it how they mean it.
So by the same token, you cannot water down atheism so that it is useless. If you define atheism as "anything that isn't quite like the particular brand of theism we're looking at," then it doesn't really mean anything.
I am not trying to pidgeon hole atheism into a single global definition. All I am looking for is a reasonable definition of the type of "not believing in our god" person that they also are, I think, precariously assigning to people who DO believe in their god. When I am talking about their accusations, I am talking about how they percieve the words as part of their communication. I don't believe that any one person or group of people should be able to give you a definition of what you believe. I just used atheist because it was what they used and I though everyone would understand the bigger picture of the accusations and condemnation.
The short answer, given my experience, is that evolution, since it is a science, does not invoke god.
Exactly. I am just arguing that outside of the acceptance of the TOE one can still be a Christian/Moslem/Etc. They don't seem to agree by their behavior and I just want to figure out why and how we might possibly, if at all, reduce this kind of behavior and begin meaningful discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 12-22-2004 11:02 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 34 of 178 (171049)
12-23-2004 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rrhain
12-22-2004 11:09 PM


Re: Evolution vs. creation
Evolution does not concern itself with the origin of life just as chemistry does not concern itself with the origin of atoms.
Excellent analogy. Purple's argument seemed to suggest that God must be the cause of each individual existence. I didn't really see it until you pointed it out.
I have an interesting perspective on God in this sense. I don't think that God can create us individually because we are all products of the decisions of our ancestors and God gave us free will to make those decisions. Free will really puts God in an interesting light because without it all our lives are deterministic and that would make the universe no better than a movie with God as the film director.
Hopefully we won't decend off topic into that too much. Anyway, good counter to Purple's point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rrhain, posted 12-22-2004 11:09 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 35 of 178 (171102)
12-23-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rrhain
12-22-2004 11:09 PM


Re: Evolution vs. creation
Rrhain writes:
God can't create life that evolves?
Sure he could, if he existed. That was one of my options, remember?
It is very difficult to give a generalized answer because there are so many different kinds of beleif in so many different kinds of God. The version I am most familiar with is the literal Genesis where God made everything exactly as it is today.
Jazzns
Jazzns writes:
Excellent analogy. Purple's argument seemed to suggest that God must be the cause of each individual existence. I didn't really see it until you pointed it out.
Yes a good bit of my argument does come from that context. How about giving us an overview of your own beleif system so that I can answer in the correct context.
I know you say you are a liberal Christian but I really don't know what that means exactly.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rrhain, posted 12-22-2004 11:09 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Rrhain, posted 12-24-2004 4:14 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 53 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2005 10:35 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 36 of 178 (171123)
12-23-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jazzns
12-22-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
Actually I was trying to give you the reasoning behind fundamentalists saying that "evo believers" must be athiests.
Jesus is needed to wipe out the stain of sin (started by Adam's original sin)
Paul says the original sin caused death to come into the world
If evolution is true then death was here before the original sin.
***Some mental leap here****
Original sin therefore didn't happen.
Jesus is not needed!!!!????
No no no....
Therefore evolution couldn't have happened.
Evolution believers must not believe the Bible
====>Belief in evolution = athiesm

Soul, sole, Sol...pick one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 12-22-2004 3:42 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Maestro232, posted 12-23-2004 12:14 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 47 by Rrhain, posted 12-24-2004 4:28 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 54 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2005 10:47 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 178 (171128)
12-23-2004 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by LinearAq
12-23-2004 11:36 AM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
I'll mention that I am a "Fundamentalist" Christian, but I know several Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior but also believe God used evolution to accomplish His creation.
I do not think they are non-Christian because of it. I think they are misguided and are taking an improper view of the sufficiency of the Word of God and have to make illogical deductions about what Scripture says, but I think most Christians do that in some area of God's Word.
Proof: If Christians understood and followed the Word of God perfectly everywhere, even though we would still be hated (Christ was and He was perfect), non-Christians would not be justified in their hate.
Just my 2 cents.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by contracycle, posted 12-23-2004 2:26 PM Maestro232 has replied
 Message 48 by sidelined, posted 12-25-2004 12:51 PM Maestro232 has not replied
 Message 49 by sidelined, posted 12-25-2004 12:51 PM Maestro232 has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 178 (171157)
12-23-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Maestro232
12-23-2004 12:14 PM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
quote:
Proof: If Christians understood and followed the Word of God perfectly everywhere, even though we would still be hated (Christ was and He was perfect), non-Christians would not be justified in their hate.
Do you not even entertain the idea that christians are hated for their moral hypocrisy, and their violent self-rightousness?
Christianity has been one of the most hateful engines of destruction, despair and slaughter across the globe, and THAT is why it is hated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Maestro232, posted 12-23-2004 12:14 PM Maestro232 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by PerfectDeath, posted 12-23-2004 3:10 PM contracycle has replied
 Message 45 by Maestro232, posted 12-24-2004 10:47 AM contracycle has not replied

  
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 178 (171162)
12-23-2004 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by contracycle
12-23-2004 2:26 PM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
it is not the religion that made thouse who belived in that act violently... in my opinion he ALL have the potential to do that just because your christain doesn't mean your violent... usually christians are violent because they try and convert people, if they do not convert then they get rid of them. We all have the potential to do that because it threatens our way of existance to We react triggering a violent response. (MY OPINION)
and i still don't see why people call people who belive in God AND evolution athiests... ATHEISTS DO NOT BELIVE IN GOD OR THE AFTER LIFE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by contracycle, posted 12-23-2004 2:26 PM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 178 (171171)
12-23-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by PerfectDeath
12-23-2004 3:10 PM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
quote:
it is not the religion that made thouse who belived in that act violently... in my opinion he ALL have the potential to do that just because your christain doesn't mean your violent... usually christians are violent because they try and convert people, if they do not convert then they get rid of them. We all have the potential to do that because it threatens our way of existance to We react triggering a violent response. (MY OPINION)
Well I agree religion does not reach into your head and make you a murderer. But religion allows the Other to be, well, "demonised". Thus we see Rumsfeld and Bush talking about "evildoers", using overtly religious language to dehumanise Iraqi's and make killing them seem virtuous. And this is exactly how christinaity was uysing during the British Empire. Christianity is a hated religion becuase of the destruction it called for, justified, and turned a blind eye to, while praising the butchers as godly men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by PerfectDeath, posted 12-23-2004 3:10 PM PerfectDeath has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 41 of 178 (171176)
12-23-2004 4:09 PM


Topic drift/derailment
{Duplicate posting}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-23-2004 11:43 PM

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 42 of 178 (171177)
12-23-2004 4:10 PM


Topic drift/derailment
While all this is interesting stuff, I tend to file it under "good debate happening in the wrong place". New topic time?
All, please review message 1's content. Messages in this topic should have some sort of connection to what was said in that message.
Adminnemooseus


Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LinearAq, posted 12-23-2004 11:22 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 43 of 178 (171253)
12-23-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Adminnemooseus
12-23-2004 4:10 PM


Re: Topic drift/derailment
I thought I was addressing the OP
Jazzns writes:
I want to focus a discussion on why some Biblical Creationists feel the need to make this assumption that Evolution = Atheism, why to some is being a Christian Evolutionist invalid, and what this has anything to do with what is at stake for the EvC debate.
Emphasis mine
Am I making a basic mistake and miss the point?

Soul, sole, Sol...pick one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-23-2004 4:10 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-23-2004 11:51 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 44 of 178 (171261)
12-23-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by LinearAq
12-23-2004 11:22 PM


Re: Topic drift/derailment
Your message was OK, although (MAYBE) things were starting to get fuzzy.
Things were really starting to stray in messages 37 or 38 through 40. Maybe I should have been more specific on my objections.
Please, no responses to this message, as moderation efforts in themselves are inherently off-topic. Anything further should be taken to the "General discussion of moderation procedures" topic, link below.
Making dubious random moderation efforts for over two years,
Adminnemooseus
{Edited because I hit "submit" when I meant to hit "preview"}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-23-2004 11:54 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Maestro232
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 178 (171296)
12-24-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by contracycle
12-23-2004 2:26 PM


Re: Fundamentalist relationships can bring some insight
Contracycle,
I think you misread my post.
you:
quote:
Do you not even entertain the idea that christians are hated for their moral hypocrisy, and their violent self-rightousness?
me:
quote:
If Christians understood and followed the Word of God perfectly everywhere...
My post is acknowledging that we don't follow the Word of God. I am claiming immunity for the Bible, not Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by contracycle, posted 12-23-2004 2:26 PM contracycle has not replied

  
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