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Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Jazzns responds to me:
quote: Um, dictionaries are descriptive, not proscriptive. By this logic, the theory of evolution would be an "educated guess" simply because the dictionary defines "theory" as an educated guess. But, we know that when scientists talk about theories, they mean something much more intense: An analysis of a set of facts in order to explain them. There is what the theists think "atheist" means and then there are what the atheists, themselves think. Since there are more theists than atheists, I am not surprised that the theistic definition of atheist shows up in the dictionary. But shouldn't we defer to what the atheists think atheism is?
quote: No, let's not. That's the entire point: It's wrong. Atheists, by and large, are not people who have an active belief in the non-existence of god. Instead, they have no belief in the existence of god. That's the entire point behind atheism: To be without. If you have belief, then you're defeating the point.
quote: Who cares what theists think atheism is? They can't possibly understand what it's like. How do you explain color to a blind man? Even though they experience the exact same lack of belief regarding a thousand other things (Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Zeus, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc.), they cannot conceive of anybody who doesn't have belief when it comes to god. Why do they get to be the arbiters of what atheism is? Shouldn't atheists be the final say? If they say they don't have belief, who are we to argue?
quote:quote: So by the same token, you cannot water down atheism so that it is useless. If you define atheism as "anything that isn't quite like the particular brand of theism we're looking at," then it doesn't really mean anything.
quote: The short answer, given my experience, is that evolution, since it is a science, does not invoke god. Since one of the tenets of Christianity is that god is always present in everything, they cannot accept the idea that something as important as the diversification of life, especially humans, might have taken place without god personally, deliberately, and consciously controlling every aspect of it. They don't quite have this problem when it comes to other scientific fields like physics or chemistry because they aren't personal. The don't see the personal connection to god in dropping a plate because, well, a plate's an inanimate object. But start hinting that they came about because of mere biology and not because god kissed them lovingly before their creation and they go nuts because they have such an intense obsession regarding god. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
PurpleYouko writes:
quote: God can't create life that evolves? Evolution does not concern itself with the origin of life just as chemistry does not concern itself with the origin of atoms. Instead, evolution concerns itself with how life behaves given that life exists just as chemistry concerns itself with how atoms behave given that atoms exist. The origin of life is a very important question, but you won't find the answer to it in evolution. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I totally agree with everything you are saying Rrhain. I wish I could find a better word but that is the one that they are using to describe me and in the context they use the word it means the equivalent of heathen. Lets use heathen then shall we? Since they often put the negative connotation in what they say anyway it might only make sense to use it how they mean it.
So by the same token, you cannot water down atheism so that it is useless. If you define atheism as "anything that isn't quite like the particular brand of theism we're looking at," then it doesn't really mean anything. I am not trying to pidgeon hole atheism into a single global definition. All I am looking for is a reasonable definition of the type of "not believing in our god" person that they also are, I think, precariously assigning to people who DO believe in their god. When I am talking about their accusations, I am talking about how they percieve the words as part of their communication. I don't believe that any one person or group of people should be able to give you a definition of what you believe. I just used atheist because it was what they used and I though everyone would understand the bigger picture of the accusations and condemnation.
The short answer, given my experience, is that evolution, since it is a science, does not invoke god. Exactly. I am just arguing that outside of the acceptance of the TOE one can still be a Christian/Moslem/Etc. They don't seem to agree by their behavior and I just want to figure out why and how we might possibly, if at all, reduce this kind of behavior and begin meaningful discussion.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Evolution does not concern itself with the origin of life just as chemistry does not concern itself with the origin of atoms. Excellent analogy. Purple's argument seemed to suggest that God must be the cause of each individual existence. I didn't really see it until you pointed it out. I have an interesting perspective on God in this sense. I don't think that God can create us individually because we are all products of the decisions of our ancestors and God gave us free will to make those decisions. Free will really puts God in an interesting light because without it all our lives are deterministic and that would make the universe no better than a movie with God as the film director. Hopefully we won't decend off topic into that too much. Anyway, good counter to Purple's point.
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PurpleYouko Member Posts: 714 From: Columbia Missouri Joined: |
Rrhain writes: God can't create life that evolves? Sure he could, if he existed. That was one of my options, remember? It is very difficult to give a generalized answer because there are so many different kinds of beleif in so many different kinds of God. The version I am most familiar with is the literal Genesis where God made everything exactly as it is today. Jazzns
Jazzns writes: Excellent analogy. Purple's argument seemed to suggest that God must be the cause of each individual existence. I didn't really see it until you pointed it out. Yes a good bit of my argument does come from that context. How about giving us an overview of your own beleif system so that I can answer in the correct context. I know you say you are a liberal Christian but I really don't know what that means exactly. PY
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4676 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Actually I was trying to give you the reasoning behind fundamentalists saying that "evo believers" must be athiests.
Jesus is needed to wipe out the stain of sin (started by Adam's original sin)Paul says the original sin caused death to come into the world If evolution is true then death was here before the original sin. ***Some mental leap here**** Original sin therefore didn't happen. Jesus is not needed!!!!???? No no no.... Therefore evolution couldn't have happened.Evolution believers must not believe the Bible ====>Belief in evolution = athiesm Soul, sole, Sol...pick one.
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Maestro232 Inactive Member |
I'll mention that I am a "Fundamentalist" Christian, but I know several Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior but also believe God used evolution to accomplish His creation.
I do not think they are non-Christian because of it. I think they are misguided and are taking an improper view of the sufficiency of the Word of God and have to make illogical deductions about what Scripture says, but I think most Christians do that in some area of God's Word.Proof: If Christians understood and followed the Word of God perfectly everywhere, even though we would still be hated (Christ was and He was perfect), non-Christians would not be justified in their hate. Just my 2 cents.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Do you not even entertain the idea that christians are hated for their moral hypocrisy, and their violent self-rightousness? Christianity has been one of the most hateful engines of destruction, despair and slaughter across the globe, and THAT is why it is hated.
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PerfectDeath Inactive Member |
it is not the religion that made thouse who belived in that act violently... in my opinion he ALL have the potential to do that just because your christain doesn't mean your violent... usually christians are violent because they try and convert people, if they do not convert then they get rid of them. We all have the potential to do that because it threatens our way of existance to We react triggering a violent response. (MY OPINION)
and i still don't see why people call people who belive in God AND evolution athiests... ATHEISTS DO NOT BELIVE IN GOD OR THE AFTER LIFE.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Well I agree religion does not reach into your head and make you a murderer. But religion allows the Other to be, well, "demonised". Thus we see Rumsfeld and Bush talking about "evildoers", using overtly religious language to dehumanise Iraqi's and make killing them seem virtuous. And this is exactly how christinaity was uysing during the British Empire. Christianity is a hated religion becuase of the destruction it called for, justified, and turned a blind eye to, while praising the butchers as godly men.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
{Duplicate posting}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-23-2004 11:43 PM
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
While all this is interesting stuff, I tend to file it under "good debate happening in the wrong place". New topic time?
All, please review message 1's content. Messages in this topic should have some sort of connection to what was said in that message. Adminnemooseus Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation proceduresor Thread Reopen Requests or Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum or Introducing the new "Boot Camp" forum Other useful links: Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4676 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
I thought I was addressing the OP
Jazzns writes:
Emphasis mine I want to focus a discussion on why some Biblical Creationists feel the need to make this assumption that Evolution = Atheism, why to some is being a Christian Evolutionist invalid, and what this has anything to do with what is at stake for the EvC debate. Am I making a basic mistake and miss the point? Soul, sole, Sol...pick one.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Your message was OK, although (MAYBE) things were starting to get fuzzy.
Things were really starting to stray in messages 37 or 38 through 40. Maybe I should have been more specific on my objections. Please, no responses to this message, as moderation efforts in themselves are inherently off-topic. Anything further should be taken to the "General discussion of moderation procedures" topic, link below. Making dubious random moderation efforts for over two years,Adminnemooseus {Edited because I hit "submit" when I meant to hit "preview"} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-23-2004 11:54 PM Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation proceduresor Thread Reopen Requests or Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum or Introducing the new "Boot Camp" forum Other useful links: Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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Maestro232 Inactive Member |
Contracycle,
I think you misread my post. you:
quote: me:
quote: My post is acknowledging that we don't follow the Word of God. I am claiming immunity for the Bible, not Christians.
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