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Author Topic:   Firefly
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 90 (170950)
12-22-2004 7:12 PM


Anybody into this series when it was on?
Dan, you had to have fallen in love with Inara.
Holmes, I'd like to resume our discussion about why you are totally wrong to have not liked it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by DrJones*, posted 12-22-2004 9:54 PM nator has not replied
 Message 3 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 11:24 PM nator has replied
 Message 8 by mikehager, posted 12-23-2004 2:19 PM nator has not replied
 Message 11 by TechnoCore, posted 12-23-2004 4:50 PM nator has not replied
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 04-14-2005 12:14 AM nator has replied
 Message 79 by Trae, posted 04-28-2005 4:14 AM nator has not replied
 Message 90 by Ben!, posted 12-10-2006 3:50 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 90 (171069)
12-23-2004 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 11:24 PM


Me, I've got a crush on both Mal and Wash.
And the fact that Fox cancelled Firefly in mid-season, even though there was already a devoted fan following that was growing just confirms to me that they are a bunch of wankers who wouldn't know good storytelling, cinematography, writing, directing, or acting if it bit them on the ass.
I hate them.
Are you looking forward to Serenity? I'm a little nervous about it, to tell you the truth. Whedon's record at making a good feature film is not that great, although we will see what he does now that he has such a great team of writers with him and a real budget.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 11:24 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-23-2004 2:09 PM nator has replied
 Message 9 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-23-2004 4:29 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 90 (171462)
12-25-2004 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Minnemooseus
12-23-2004 2:09 PM


quote:
Was this the Fox network - broadcast TV, or was this some cable TV thing?
Broadcast TV.
quote:
I don't have cable. If it was broadcast, they must of done a pretty feeble job of promoting it -
You speak the truth.
quote:
I never heard of it much less saw it. In what part of the year was it on?
It was on in the fall of 2002.
Whedon made a really good 2 hour pilot, which was broadcast after they cancelled the series.
Fox didn't like the pilot because they are stupid fuckheads, so they made Whedon and Minear write a regular-length episode in a single weekend as a different pilot, that was brilliant for a weekend of work but not that great compared to the real pilot.
It kills me because Firefly would be in it's 3rd season by now.
Does anyone remember how completely awesome the 3rd seasons of Angel and Buffy were?
Fox is a fay-fay duh pee-yen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-23-2004 2:09 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 90 (172073)
12-29-2004 9:17 AM


Holmes, Firefly is derivitave, but so what?
Holmes indicated that he wasn't that impressed with Firefly because he thought that it was, on the whole, derivitave.
My reply to that is that I agree that it is derivitave. Whedon is quite good at setting us up in these familiar genres and themes for the purpose of tweaking and twisting them in unexpected ways.
Thus, fun.
Besides, just because some art is derivitave doesn't mean it is less good.
Nearly all blues music has the same chord progression. When you hear a blues song, you know right away that it is a blues song.
Does that mean we might as well stop writing new songs using that format?
Any comments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-29-2004 9:44 AM nator has replied
 Message 17 by Silent H, posted 12-29-2004 2:17 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 90 (172075)
12-29-2004 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dan Carroll
12-23-2004 4:29 PM


Dan, do you have the DVD?
IOW, have you seen the second Saffron episode? It was never aired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-23-2004 4:29 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 90 (172088)
12-29-2004 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dan Carroll
12-29-2004 9:44 AM


Re: Holmes, Firefly is derivitave, but so what?
"You know, they tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-29-2004 9:44 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 90 (172133)
12-29-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Silent H
12-29-2004 2:17 PM


Before I begin, I totally get that you, of course, don't have to like anything just because anybody else says so. Taste is taste. I am not trying to get you to like it. I just want to respond to your thoughts. Feel free to respond back or not, I won't expect it.
quote:
While things seem unexpected to you, they seem both expected and repetitious to me, perhaps because of their derivative nature.
Huh, you thought that everybody speaking English and Chinese was expected, or that it wasn't odd to be galloping on horseback to catch your spaceship wasn't unexpected, or that in the future a trained prostitute is considered an important, reputable fine lady?
I'm not being sarcastic or snotty, I'm truly rather startled that anyone would think that these things are boring or repetitious.
quote:
Indeed, space as western and as victorian age (the brother-sister thing) is done.
When has it been done like this, though, with real characters that have depth?
The show is obviously derived from Star Wars (western in space) but it is nothing like Star Wars in feel. The characters in star wars are written broadly and are iconic, and they are supposed to be, which is nothing like the characers or relationships in Firefly.
I've never seen another show like it.
quote:
Why can't space be something WHOLLY NEW?
Like I said, the show is only incidentally sci-fi.
quote:
You mentioned before that his writing is more about relationships. That is what I felt. I felt this could have been anywhere. Heck, they could have saved a bundle and made it a ship rolling around on the modern day ocean. Actually now that I say that, I would have liked that immensely.
Yeah, but a ship rolling around on the open ocean is visually repetitious and BORING.
quote:
In any case the space portion was useless except as gimmickry. Kind of like replacing magic with scifi tech to get a situation going.
Well....right. Like being on a ship is setting the scene to get a situation going, such as in Master and Commander.
I really don't understand why this is a fault. Every world that is created for a fictional show or play or whatever is a kind of gimick that serves to provide context for the characters.
In the case of Firefly, the space aspect allows for quick change and is consistent with how things might be like 600 years in the future.
Anyway, good to hear your thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Silent H, posted 12-29-2004 2:17 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 12-29-2004 5:07 PM nator has replied
 Message 36 by Trae, posted 01-14-2005 4:01 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 90 (172235)
12-30-2004 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Silent H
12-29-2004 5:07 PM


quote:
Yes, none of these are unique, even if having a prostitute being a good guy on TV is relatively unique these days.
Huh, when else have you seen chinese and English spoken, and when have you seen people galloping on horseback to catch their spaceship??
Call me sheltered, but those were certainly new to me.
quote:
None of these elements are repetitious, however the scenarios they find themselves in certainly were.
See, like Dan said, I don't find the scenarios repetitious for the most part.
quote:
I will note that I did not say boring, though will admit their tired PC moral values were quite boring. I'd have been more impressed if the prostitute was free enough to actually have sex for... could it really happen?... FUN? No, she had to have sex in order to fulfill people's lives in some emotionally charged way.
She did, with the female client from War Stories.
But anyway, why do you think it fits with the character that she would actually want to let herself go to the extent that she would take a client only to have "fun"? It seems to me that Inara is very wary of feeling too emotionally attached or out of control in general, so it fits that she would mostly choose clients that she could remain emotionally distant from and be in a superior position to.
Also, she's not a prostitute, she's a Companion.
Also, in Heart of Gold, at least the whore who is with Jayne is having a pretty good time.
quote:
No, there was nothing new in the way of characters... with the exception of the space assassin, which is the one episode I liked.
Uh, the super-assasin/bounty hunter who is also a bit crazy and cruel, fooled by the weakest member of the group who is also the one he is hunting?
I am afraid that this didn't, for the most part, seem original to me at all. The writing was great, but the writing is pretty much always good. The basic scenario has been done many times in the past.
quote:
Star Trek was the series that was meant to be like a western... pitched as Wagon Train in space. I like the characters in several of the ST series, better than anything I saw in firefly.
LOL!
Wow, do we have different perceptions of reality.
Not a single one of the main characters in several of the Star Trek incarnations was ever allowed to be less than supremely noble and morally pure. They had to be posessed by some alien or otherworldy force to ever do anything bad.
None of the characters in Firefly, with the exception of maybe Wash, Kaylee and Inara, are all that nice, and not a single one is particularly noble or morally pure.
quote:
To me these are cardboard characters. They are going through complex situations, but there is no real depthto the characters themselves.
Again, wow, we have very different perceptions of reality.
So, you figure that the characters on Firefly have no more depth that those on, say, "Walker: Texas Ranger", or "Full House"?
quote:
The people on firefly might as well have come out of a PC press machine. Even those that were unPC, managed to fill every PC role nicely. They represented no change whatsoever.
Space, and the experience of space exploration/colonization, will indoubtedly create a more interesting (read DIFFERENT) culture, than the singularly PC universe seen in Firefly.
Uh, please explain. I have no idea what you are talking about.
All the characters are PC? The chatacters that are not PC are still PC?
I don't get it.
If you want to see a tired PC universe, try the Star Trek world.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-30-2004 08:31 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 12-29-2004 5:07 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Silent H, posted 12-30-2004 8:18 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 90 (172489)
12-31-2004 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Silent H
12-30-2004 8:18 PM


quote:
Yes, that about says it all. In the end, she is not just about fun. They made that pretty clear. The series is fully loaded with sex=love.
This removes the guilt associated with the sex that she would have.
Only you, holmes, would fault a TV show for having a character who is a prostitute and is also considered in that created world to be a high-class, very well-respected, fine, educated lady because she doesn't conform to your particular views on sex.
You have every right to, but I have got to say that in retrospect, I am not surprised. This is the subject that you grind your axe upon.
I see that you ignored my two examples (one with Inara and one with a regular whore) in which the women ARE having sex for fun.
Also, Kaylee clearly considers sex a great deal of fun. Remember what she was doing when she was offered the job of ship's mechanic? She obviously wasn't in love with the guy, and once the talk turned to mechanics she ignored him completely.
quote:
You simply have not read the stories nor watched the episodes. At least I cannot believe so. How many instances must I name before you'd switch on this?
I watched ST:TNG pretty religiously for years, and have seen many reruns of the original ST.
Kirk, Picard, Riker, Troy, Wesley, Spock, Bones, LaForge, and Worf can all be counted on to come through and do the right thing in the end. Any bad thing they do is generally due to extreme circumstances or some kind of strange influence of a drug or alien force. I wouldn't consider a single one of these characters anything other than morally pure and noble. Their characters are pretty shallow because they don't really seem to ever screw up royally so that anything really terrible happens, or act in a purely self-interested way. They all have the prime directive to guide them.
quote:
The original series broke many grounds and that was far beyond the interracial kiss which was due to force and I assume you were referencing.
Well, yeah, I know it broke ground with race, and with having a russian on the crew during the cold war, etc. But then you say:
quote:
Very simply Firefly is today's issues played out by today's PC characters, in the far future.
How is the original ST not doing exactly what you fault Firefly for?
It's not like nobody was talking about race in the 1960's, for goodness sake. Or the Cold War and the USSR and China. Or gender roles, or Vietnam. Those were all extremely hot social and political issues of the day, right there on the screen.
The original ST simply was the issues of the 1960's played out by that era's PC characters, in the far future, if there was such a thing as PC back then. I guess you could call them "progressive" instead of PC.
And again, only you would fault a TV show for turning the idea of a prostitute, who in today's America are viewed as the lowest of the low but in the show are higly repected and the pinnacle of high-society, because she doesn't have sex in the way you think everybody should.
quote:
Of course they are all nice. They are all cut in the mold of the new Addam's family. They look bad and pose bad, enough to be antiheroes (the PC hero), but heaven forbid they actually are bad.
Nothing about Jayne is nice and he is nost certainly pretty bad. Remember, he sells out Simon and River to the Alliance but is double crossed. Mal is constantly having to keep an eye on Jayne because Jayne is pretty much an amoral mercenery.
Book appears very nice but we see glimpses of his past life that make us think that he may have been very, very not nice.
River is crazy so we don't know if she is inherently bad or not, but she did pick up a knife and slash Jayne in the chest.
The show wasn't on long enough to really get into any of those past stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Silent H, posted 12-30-2004 8:18 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 9:56 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 90 (172968)
01-02-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
12-31-2004 9:56 AM


quote:
If it is important, I was not saying that they did not have fun with sex. My point was that it was not just for fun.
And my example of Kaylee when we first meet her was that she was having sex, purely for fun in the engine room with the hot but dumb mechanic.
quote:
Specifically with the main character. Her passion is humourless. Yes she can have fun when she has sex, but that it is not what it is all about. I believe she delivers a lecture on that very point.
Well, that is part of what makes her character more interesting and somewhat mysterious. In Heart of Gold we hear a tiny reference to Inara's past at the companion school, and that she might have left under unusual circumstances. There may be a history there that we never had a chance to learn about and would explain some things.
Anyway, you are still insisting that the demeanor of a companion and this particular character narrowly conform to your views on how she should have sex. Besides, she does have fun sex, with the female client.
Kaylee clearly considers sex a great deal of fun.
quote:
She is the only character I liked on the show. But she was still an emotional wreck.
What? I count Kaylee as one of the more emotionally healthy people on the ship.
quote:
I asked you to tell me how many examples you wanted before crying uncle. While it is true that they may do the right thing in the end, that is not synonymous with having done the right thing all along, and more importantly it has NOTHING to do with being PC.
See, I think you are using your own personal definition of PC that doesn't reflect how most people use the term.
Here's a definition I found:
1) Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
2) Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.
Gee, the first Star Trek series surely fits in nicely here.
Especially that "black and white" episode. And ST:TNG, there was that episode where the people they encountered were supposed to be androgynous and anyone showing signs of leaning male or female were "fixed", and the other episode where Troy's mother fell in love with a man and wanted to marry him except that on his planet all people were killed when they reached the age of 50 or something.
And anyway, I'd love to hear how Jayne's morality is anything like Kaylee's.
quote:
These are all acceptable PC bads, emotional and relational doublcrosses. These people do not have any unsavory aspect, any really unsavory aspect. They are all acting (even while being "bad") from the same moral center.
Perhaps you can give a couple of examples of the unsavory aspects and diverse moral landscape of the wharacters on the first Star Trek series, just so I can understand what you mean when you say that that show was not PC at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 9:56 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by nator, posted 01-02-2005 8:05 AM nator has not replied
 Message 35 by Silent H, posted 01-02-2005 10:10 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 90 (172974)
01-02-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
01-02-2005 6:58 AM


Holmes, just so you know, it's no big deal to me if you don't feel like replying. Things are slow on the board and although I pretty much know that we will not likely come to agreement on this particular subject it is fun to spar.
I just don't want to come across as angry or pissed of, because I'm not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 01-02-2005 6:58 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 90 (181081)
01-27-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dan Carroll
01-18-2005 9:25 AM


Put the fanboy back in the box.
quote:
I want to, but I can't.
Awww, me too. I've got it just as bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-18-2005 9:25 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-02-2005 9:37 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 41 of 90 (181082)
01-27-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Trae
01-14-2005 4:01 PM


quote:
P.S. A friend of mine mentioned earlier today that Serendipity has a release date at the end of September. As a side note, this is the time of the year studios dump movices they don't expect to do well.
I think it has a LOT more to do with the fact that the final Star Wars movie is being released in May, and they didn't want Serenity to be overlooked during the hype of what will almost certainly be a much higher grossing yet completely inferior movie.
That is, if the other two movies are to be any measure of the third. The prase, "downward spiral" comes to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Trae, posted 01-14-2005 4:01 PM Trae has seen this message but not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 90 (181087)
01-27-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Trae
01-14-2005 4:01 PM


quote:
My first thought on thinking of that character was, Oh, the old Cassiopeia storyline from Battlestar Galatica. I wonder how long before the writers redeem her?
"Redeem her?"
Why would they do that? She hasn't done anything that needs redemption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Trae, posted 01-14-2005 4:01 PM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Trae, posted 02-03-2005 12:58 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 90 (182870)
02-03-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Trae
02-03-2005 12:58 AM


quote:
I don't know how to reply to your post.
I assume you know that some people would find what she does morally wrong.
In our real world, yes, but not in the world in which her character resides.
quote:
I assume you know that TV Networks often apply presure to alter TV shows.
Of course, but you spoke of her "creators" (Whedon, Minear, etc.) redeeming her, not the networks, so that's the context I responded in.
quote:
So the answer might be anything from networks thinking they know better to networks just blowing it. Or perhaps you meant a different question?
I was wondering why you thought Whedon would want to redeem her, since in her world, the world they created, she is a member of the elite society and important; hardly in need of any redemptopn. ...at least, not for her profession. We hardly know anything about her past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Trae, posted 02-03-2005 12:58 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Trae, posted 02-05-2005 2:16 AM nator has not replied

  
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