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Author Topic:   Greetings from the Sandbox.
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 42 (172534)
12-31-2004 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
12-31-2004 1:39 PM


Holmes writes:
I was taking offense at his callous attitude toward those suffering around him, and his prodeath prokilling attitude. Comments such as "I kill, I break things" is not part of a soldier's job description. It is the self description of a thug.
How well do we know Tal to make these kinds of judgements?
I disagree with your assesment. "I kill" is most certainly part of a soldier's job description.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 1:39 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 42 (172536)
12-31-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
12-31-2004 1:39 PM


Holmes writes:
That said, your citation does not support your claim. Jesus is saying his kingdom is not of this world and so there is no reason to fight.
My assertion is that Jesus is not against fighting/killing/war in all situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 1:39 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 19 of 42 (172539)
12-31-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Silent H
12-31-2004 9:17 AM


Edited to delete angry un-Christian-like words towards holmes...
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-31-2004 14:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 9:17 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 20 of 42 (172544)
12-31-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
12-31-2004 1:39 PM


I was taking offense at his callous attitude toward those suffering around him, and his prodeath prokilling attitude Comments such as "I kill, I break things" is not part of a soldier's job description.
This caused a fit of laughter. Holmes I think you are a bit out of touch with reality.
That is not the only thing he said along those lines, which is insulting and inconsistent with the image we need to be displaying, and the imagery he proudly displays, right next to quotes from the Bible, are not consistent/appropriate as a Xian.
You have not shown any inconsistency and you fail to acknowledge that Jesus and his followers accept the words of the WHOLE Bible including the OT.
However pride is a sin, and pride in killing, even if the killing was necessary, is certainly not consistent with Xian ethics.
So you think a Xian soldier must feel guilty every time he kills an enemy soldier, and must never take pleasure in winning a battle? Perhaps you are mistaking pride for Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for one's job.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-31-2004 14:32 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 1:39 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 4:57 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 42 (172563)
12-31-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by dpardo
12-31-2004 1:48 PM


How well do we know Tal to make these kinds of judgements?
We don't. Neither do we have enough to absolve him.
I believe if you look at my posts I said that his words rubbed me the wrong way and confused me because they seem to be portraying a certain inconsistent image, as well as an undesirable one.
Other than the fact that he said that he is a US soldier and a fundamentalist Xian, please explain how the words he has used and the image he has presented are any different than the image of and words used by those we are fighting and said were intolerable?
"I kill" is most certainly part of a soldier's job description.
I kill and destroy things? Only if you are an ignorant soldier. Part of your job would include these possibilities, that is not the whole and certainly not the part you are supposed to be gloating on when you are supposed to be helping a nation rebuild.
And I mentioned he made other comments.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dpardo, posted 12-31-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 22 of 42 (172565)
12-31-2004 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hangdawg13
12-31-2004 2:31 PM


This caused a fit of laughter. Holmes I think you are a bit out of touch with reality.
It is comments such as these that were used to villify Nazis, Japanese soldiers, Hussein's soldiers, and to some extent Al Queda members. If any of them had come here and said such a thing, would you not have said this is proof of their ignorant attitudes and callous disregard for life?
He also said that the people he was fighting want to die a martyr's death and he was just helping them get their wish. Is that true HD13? For all of them including secularist Baath members? Or is it untrue? How many innocents have been killed in the crossfire as well?
Did he come off to you as a good representative of the US military and Xian morality? Really?
You have not shown any inconsistency and you fail to acknowledge that Jesus and his followers accept the words of the WHOLE Bible including the OT.
What on earth are you talking about? I just got done saying that was a possible interpretation. Indeed I have yet to get a straight line from many Xians on here whether the OT is removed or kept by Jesus, so don't yell at me.
Remember I asked for his explanation on how he balances a prokilling attitude (which is clearly what was being portrayed... even Mike the Wiz picked up on that) and the general Xian morality which is supposed to be negative on killing and HIGH ON COMPASSION.
I believe I have been through this very argument with you before. Funny how I am now contrary to theology by supporting what you said that Xianity is about love and compassion.
So you think a Xian soldier must feel guilty every time he kills an enemy soldier, and must never take pleasure in winning a battle? Perhaps you are mistaking pride for Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for one's job.
I think a fundamentalist Xian would, given the amount of time spent berating all other faiths and non faiths for being bloody thirsty. But no, I don't think it is necessary. What I would expect to be exhibited is humility, and a downplaying of death.
Did you see any of this in his post?
Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for the job of a soldier does not translate to idiotic comments such as "I kill, I break things" nor that one is helping martyrs get their wish. That is called gallows humor or hubris (when it is situational)... if it is a consistent and actual attitude for one's job, then we would all call it being a thug, right?
We do not call such commentary esprit de corps when our enemies say such things. We are supposed to be better than that.
If it is gallows humor, then it appears inconsistent for a devout Xian who should conceivably be humbled by the task being undertaken and less callously hubristic. That is why I asked.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-31-2004 2:31 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-31-2004 8:47 PM Silent H has replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 42 (172603)
12-31-2004 8:16 PM


Personal perspective, interjection.
Excuse my interjection please, but I would like to offer another perspective to this thread.
Tal’s thread title:
Greetings from the sandbox.
I saw nothing within Tal's initial post, to be confrontational, or hostile. Rather I saw greetings extended, and an explanation of his situation, given in terms of reference applicable to him i.e. ‘sandbox’.
To imply merely from a general opening comment that, he is contradictory, is making an assumption. (edited to reflect a more accurate sentiment.)
Assume = to make an ‘Ass’ out of, U and Me.
Further I did not believe the evolution vs. creation forum, to be a platform for debate in regards to a person’s individual ‘moral’ activity, regardless of their belief. Please someone correct me here if I am wrong.
Tal’s comment:
Oh, and I believe in the God of the bible and a literal 6 day creation. Tal
I see as statement of position, for the benefit of those who don’t know him. Anyone following threads here will see where newbie’s, have met with assumptions, in regards to their position, or gender, such as I found in my own experience.
Therefore I propose this gentlemen: If you have an open house, and one comes in offering greetings, that it is rude for ones initial response to that guest, to be: ‘sorry I don’t like your shirt’ ?
Example:
  • Message 7
  • Message 12
  • Message 14
    Expressing simple curtesy first, may result in an environment, more conducive to discussion.
    The moral base, of war in Iraq:
    I do not see how one person can have the monopoly, on being held to account for that issue. For any of us to have a judgement bias, toward a position that others hold, is the very thing that’s sets apart the ‘peacekeepers’ from the ignorant. This is a general statement of my perspective, and holds no direct implication toward anyone.
  • Using ‘peacekeeper’, here as being biblical, rather than military. Though I do not propose the word to be more or less applied to ‘creationist's’, ‘evolutionist's’, or any belief system.
    No ‘newbie’, will ever be identical to what has gone before, regardless of their belief. Subsequently may I suggest, if one wishes to challenge in regards to a persons individual actions, or morality, that it be proposed, as a topic suggestion to the intended first. Of course with consideration given to, the affect a debate may have, on a persons current situation. Message 16
    Shaz
    This message has been edited by Shaz, 02 January 2005 01:13 AM

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by kjsimons, posted 12-31-2004 11:17 PM Shaz has not replied
     Message 30 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 5:20 AM Shaz has replied

      
    Hangdawg13
    Member (Idle past 751 days)
    Posts: 1189
    From: Texas
    Joined: 05-30-2004


    Message 24 of 42 (172611)
    12-31-2004 8:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Silent H
    12-31-2004 4:57 PM


    It is comments such as these that were used to villify Nazis, Japanese soldiers, Hussein's soldiers, and to some extent Al Queda members.
    No its not! These people were villified for cruelty and murder, not a tough personality and a sense of humor about death.
    He also said that the people he was fighting want to die a martyr's death and he was just helping them get their wish. Is that true HD13? For all of them including secularist Baath members? Or is it untrue? How many innocents have been killed in the crossfire as well?
    You obviously have no grasp of what it is like to be a soldier. You should note that one way to keep morale and courage high is to have a sense of humor about it all. I cannot understand being so hypersensitive as to get one's panties in a twist so easily. Try to take your mind out of your armchair and put it in a soldier's boots. You claim your are not anti-military yet you have no idea what a military is.
    Did he come off to you as a good representative of the US military and Xian morality? Really?
    Absolutely! Maybe a little misinformed about the creo/evo debate, but even then he's not arrogantly coming in here guns'a'blazing telling you you're going to hell because you're an atheist evolutionist. And he can write well, so what's your dadgum problem?
    Christianity places a premium on compassion and forgivness and turning the other cheek in all situations. Killing is always wrong except in warfare. And there it must be accomplished with maximum force and efficiency so as to save life in the long run. Neither you nor anyone else has demonstrated that Jesus' talk about turning the other cheek applies to warfare. In fact there is evidence that Jesus is not opposed to the military: He gave the Centurion a great compliment and mentioned nothing of his occupation of killing; Peter carried a sword with him and Jesus never discouraged this until Jesus was to be taken away to be tried; Jesus quoted from the OT (I can't remember if he quoted the psalms); Jesus claimed to be the same Lord of Hosts (armies) the OT who trained David's hands for battle and called David, the greatest warrior of his day, a man after God's own heart; Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars until I come; Jesus said to obey the government and give what is due (I suppose this applies to military service). Now don't tell me that being a Christian mandates that I must also be a pacifist.
    Being a soldier in a free nation protecting that free nation is an honorable occupation and is compatible with Christianity.
    I believe I have been through this very argument with you before. Funny how I am now contrary to theology by supporting what you said that Xianity is about love and compassion.
    You are not contary to theology by supporting love and compassion. You are contrary to theology when you call an American Christian soldier a thug and a hypocrite for having a casual sense of humor about his occupation. You're own self-righteousness clouds your thinking.
    If someone has a bomb and is about to blow it up in a market square full of peaceful citizens and you have the power to stop him by killing him, how do you show love in that situation? You kill him.
    What I would expect to be exhibited is humility, and a downplaying of death.
    Did you see any of this in his post?
    yeah...? You are making death, which comes to us all, out to be a horrid taboo which must be feared and hated. I guess that may be a natural consequence of being an atheist. I am amazed at how a person's worldview can so differentiate two people's reading of a harmless post..
    Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for the job of a soldier does not translate to idiotic comments such as "I kill, I break things" nor that one is helping martyrs get their wish. That is called gallows humor or hubris (when it is situational)... if it is a consistent and actual attitude for one's job, then we would all call it being a thug, right?
    You sound like my delicate grandmother. Perhaps, your misunderstanding comes from a lack of experience with manhood and competition in general? I wonder, did you ever play football or hockey or wrestle or any other sport where aggressiveness matters?
    We do not call such commentary esprit de corps when our enemies say such things. We are supposed to be better than that.
    Better than what??? I love to blow stuff up! I even planned to go into the Marine Corps and kill people. And I kinda sadistically enjoy seeing you get your prissy liberal panties in a twist when I say that. Does that affect my ability to show love and compassion to others? Absolutely not! However, the continuation of this particular debate with you may do so...
    This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-31-2004 20:48 AM
    This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-31-2004 21:51 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 4:57 PM Silent H has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Zawi
    Member (Idle past 3630 days)
    Posts: 126
    From: UK
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 25 of 42 (172615)
    12-31-2004 8:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 15 by dpardo
    12-31-2004 11:48 AM


    Jesus and his father are one remember?
    That is a matter of religious dispute. Many Christian religions, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, believe God and Jesus to be seperate entities. I believe Holmes was looking for a quote from Jesus in his human form.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by dpardo, posted 12-31-2004 11:48 AM dpardo has not replied

      
    kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 821
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003
    Member Rating: 6.7


    Message 26 of 42 (172643)
    12-31-2004 11:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Shaz
    12-31-2004 8:16 PM


    Re: Personal perspective, interjection.
    Therefore I propose this gentlemen: If you have an open house, and one comes in offering greetings, that it is rude for ones initial response to that guest, to be: ‘sorry I don’t like your shirt’ ?
    Example:
    Message 7
    Message 12
    Message 14
    Expressing simple curtesy first, may result in an environment, more conducive to discussion.
    Since I posted messages 12 & 14 I will respond.
    I owe no ignorant person any courtesy in matters of science. To have someone boldy announce that they would rather believe what a musty old book 'might' say over what millions of dedicated scientists have painstakingly discovered about the universe, with no other justification than that's what they want to believe, then I owe them nothing but scorn. Willful ignorance is not to be praised but should be shamed. Not all positions or beliefs are equal. The story of Jesus may have deeper meaning to some people than Santa Claus, but it has no more a factual basis than it or for that matter any other religion. How come I don't see any followers of Zeus or Ra or whatever? It's because those are older, disguarded religions not less right or less factual.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Shaz, posted 12-31-2004 8:16 PM Shaz has not replied

      
    Tal
    Member (Idle past 5677 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 27 of 42 (172664)
    01-01-2005 2:05 AM


    *Looks at the worms wriggle from the opened can*
    Wow, ok where to start with this.
    *Runs up to find a quote*
    quote:
    But of course he can! Being ignorant of science is part of the fun of being a fundie. In fact one of the requirements of being a YEC is to be totally scientifically ignorant.
    That is subject to debate, but that is why we are all here.
    quote:
    Someone else answered this already but I will repeat the point. You can't pick and choose science that you like on a whim. If you believe it works in the case of your body armor, you cannot simply say it doesn't work for carbon dating.
    But what I can do is look at inconsistancies in the method and draw conclusions. Drawing my own conclusion based on all sides of an argument is how I come to "believe" in something or other, whether its faith or science.
    quote:
    I was taking offense at his callous attitude toward those suffering around him, and his prodeath prokilling attitude. Comments such as "I kill, I break things" is not part of a soldier's job description. It is the self description of a thug.
    One of the jobs I hold is Infantryman. The Infantry's job is to close with and destroy the enemy.
    quote:
    Yes I know this is a valid interpretation. However pride is a sin, and pride in killing, even if the killing was necessary, is certainly not consistent with Xian ethics.
    Some of the greatest men in the bible were soldiers by trade. Joshua, Gideon, King David, the Roman Centurion. King David wasn't allowed to build the temple because he had so much blood on his hands, yet he was still loved by God.
    quote:
    Now you find me where people are supposed to be haughty and boastful of their need to kill others, and use language that demeans the people they are fighting for.
    You assume much. I am not a war junkie. I haven't been on a mission for the last month, and that suits me just fine. You have chosen to believe that I run out into downtown Baghdad and start shooting whomever, because hey, I have the rounds and need the target practice. You jumped to a wrong conclusion.
    And make no mistake, while I love the Iraqi people that I've met (note alot of insurgents are not Iraqis) and my particular mission is to help rebuild their country and provide stability, I am fighting for Mr./Mrs. US citizen that would like to be able to board a plane without fear of it being highjacked and run into a building.
    quote:
    Other than the fact that he said that he is a US soldier and a fundamentalist Xian, please explain how the words he has used and the image he has presented are any different than the image of and words used by those we are fighting and said were intolerable?
    Now you are starting to work on the nerves. I will simply say that you don't see me on TV cutting an average Iraqi's head off with a dull knife. There is no equivication between what I do, and what the insurgents do.
    quote:
    Esprit de Corps and enthusiasm for the job of a soldier does not translate to idiotic comments such as "I kill, I break things"
    It's not idiotic, it's a simple phrase for what we do.
    quote:
    I kill and destroy things? Only if you are an ignorant soldier. Part of your job would include these possibilities, that is not the whole and certainly not the part you are supposed to be gloating on when you are supposed to be helping a nation rebuild.
    You would be correct if there were no more badguys. However, until the bad guys stop killing civillians and blowing stuff up, killing them remains our primary job.
    quote:
    To have someone boldy announce that they would rather believe what a musty old book 'might' say over what millions of dedicated scientists have painstakingly discovered about the universe, with no other justification than that's what they want to believe, then I owe them nothing but scorn.
    But what I can do is look at inconsistancies in the method and draw conclusions. Drawing my own conclusion based on all sides of an argument is how I come to "believe" in something or other, whether its faith or science.
    I don't mind your scorn, but don't assume that I haven't read and researched about many of these topics. You make it seem as if I pulled my opinion on the matter right out of thin air with no evidence and rejected the mountain of evidence brought to the table by evolution.
    That is simply not the case for me. I did sum up what I believed in one statement just to let everyone know where I stand. The details of why I stand there are being debated in the threads above.

    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
    No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 6:45 AM Tal has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 28 of 42 (172679)
    01-01-2005 4:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Silent H
    12-31-2004 9:17 AM


    Setting the record straight
    Wow! This topic is a verbal joust between the humanist and the warrior! Holmes, this world will never be perfect if we all love each other and roll up our sleeves like the Peace Corp. Why? Because Human nature is imperfect and NEVER will be. You may think that theology is but a dusty book of contradictions and ulterior motives, while the clear thinking non religious scientists that brought us bayer aspirin and celebrex are somehow going to eliminate religious conflicts, human oppression, and greed by eliminating outdated ideas in our heads. NEWS FLASH: We need a Savior!
    Hangdawg writes:
    Christianity places a premium on compassion and forgivness and turning the other cheek in all situations. Killing is always wrong except in warfare. And there it must be accomplished with maximum force and efficiency so as to save life in the long run. Neither you nor anyone else has demonstrated that Jesus' talk about turning the other cheek applies to warfare. In fact there is evidence that Jesus is not opposed to the military: He gave the Centurion a great compliment and mentioned nothing of his occupation of killing; Peter carried a sword with him and Jesus never discouraged this until Jesus was to be taken away to be tried; Jesus quoted from the OT (I can't remember if he quoted the psalms); Jesus claimed to be the same Lord of Hosts (armies) the OT who trained David's hands for battle and called David, the greatest warrior of his day, a man after God's own heart; Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars until I come; Jesus said to obey the government and give what is due (I suppose this applies to military service). Now don't tell me that being a Christian mandates that I must also be a pacifist.
    Being a soldier in a free nation protecting that free nation is an honorable occupation and is compatible with Christianity.
    Jesus, who is alive today, by the way, knows that all humans are imperfect. There will be wars and rumors of wars until the end of time. I suppose that in your secular humanist vision, humanity may someday come to its senses, eliminate ancient myths and fables which pit us against each other, and all work together under one world government to eliminate hunger, war, poverty, perhaps even by genetic engineering we will eliminate jealousy, greed, and pride! For those of us who know and love Jesus, however, we know that the world is an imperfect place and we know that the U.S. is also imperfect in many ways. One thing that we will not do is get rid of our belief for the sake of your humanist utopia.
    What would YOU do if YOU were the one in charge? How would YOU handle Iraq? Send in the Peace Corp?
    This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-01-2005 02:25 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Silent H, posted 12-31-2004 9:17 AM Silent H has replied

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    sidelined
    Member (Idle past 5908 days)
    Posts: 3435
    From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
    Joined: 08-30-2003


    Message 29 of 42 (172681)
    01-01-2005 4:44 AM


    No easy answer exists for the game humans play in war. It is though,the highest in irresponsibilty to assume the stance that killing on the battlefield is something to be analysed when safe at home and not trained and in places where the flight of bulets
    transcends political correctness or even simple humanity.
    This poem is for these people.Pay attention particularly to the last two verses
    Apologia Pro Poemate Meo
    I, too, saw God through mud,-
    The mud that cracked on cheeks when wretches smiled.
    War brought more glory to their eyes than blood,
    And gave their laughs more glee than shakes a child.
    Merry it was to laugh there-
    Where death becomes absurd and life absurder.
    For power was on us as we slashed bones bare
    Not to feel sickness or remorse of murder.
    I, too, have dropped off Fear-
    Behind the barrage, dead as my platoon,
    And sailed my spirit surging light and clear
    Past the entanglement where hopes lay strewn;
    And witnessed exultation-
    Faces that used to curse me, scowl for scowl,
    Shine and lift up with passion of oblation,
    Seraphic for an hour; though they were foul.
    I have made fellowships-
    Untold of happy lovers in old song.
    For love is not the binding of fair lips
    With the soft silk of eyes that look and long,
    By Joy, whose ribbon slips,-
    But wound with war's hard wire whose stakes are strong;
    Bound with the bandage of the arm that drips;
    Knit in the webbing of the rifle-thong.
    I have perceived much beauty
    In the hoarse oaths that kept our courage straight;
    Heard music in the silentness of duty;
    Found peace where shell-storms spouted reddest spate.
    Nevertheless, except you share
    With them in hell the sorrowful dark of hell,
    Whose world is but the trembling of a flare,
    And heaven but as the highway for a shell,
    You shall not hear their mirth:
    You shall not come to think them well content
    By any jest of mine. These men are worth
    Your tears. You are not worth their merriment
    It is also equally foolsh to believe that the individual at war,full of the great heat of war's theatre,is an instrument of anything but the collosal interplay of other human policies and agendas.That you take life with a double head shot to assure your safety and your friends does not make the act noble.It merely makes it necessary.More's the pity.
    This poem is for you
    Insensibility
    1
    Happy are men who yet before they are killed
    Can let their veins run cold.
    Whom no compassion fleers
    Or makes their feet
    Sore on the alleys cobbled with their brothers.
    The front line withers,
    But they are troops who fade, not flowers,
    For poets' tearful fooling:
    Men, gaps for filling:
    Losses, who might have fought
    Longer; but no one bothers.
    2
    And some cease feeling
    Even themselves or for themselves.
    Dullness best solves
    The tease and doubt of shelling,
    And Chance's strange arithmetic
    Comes simpler than the reckoning of their shilling.
    They keep no check on armies' decimation.
    3
    Happy are these who lose imagination:
    They have enough to carry with ammunition.
    Their spirit drags no pack.
    Their old wounds, save with cold, can not more ache.
    Having seen all things red,
    Their eyes are rid
    Of the hurt of the colour of blood for ever.
    And terror's first constriction over,
    Their hearts remain small-drawn.
    Their senses in some scorching cautery of battle
    Now long since ironed,
    Can laugh among the dying, unconcerned.
    4
    Happy the soldier home, with not a notion
    How somewhere, every dawn, some men attack,
    And many sighs are drained.
    Happy the lad whose mind was never trained:
    His days are worth forgetting more than not.
    He sings along the march
    Which we march taciturn, because of dusk,
    The long, forlorn, relentless trend
    From larger day to huger night.
    5
    We wise, who with a thought besmirch
    Blood over all our soul,
    How should we see our task
    But through his blunt and lashless eyes?
    Alive, he is not vital overmuch;
    Drying, not mortal overmuch;
    Nor sad, nor proud,
    Nor curious at all.
    He cannot tell
    Old men's placidity from his.
    6
    But cursed are dullards whom no cannon stuns,
    That they should be as stones.
    Wretched are they, and mean
    With paucity that never was simplicity.
    By choice they made themselves immune
    To pity and whatever moans in man
    Before the last sea and the hapless stars;
    Whatever mourns when many leave these shores;
    Whatever shares
    The eternal reciprocity of tears.
    War is not holy nor is god in charge it is simply human beings doing a poor job of understanding the world in other than black and white.To each enemy killed by either side there is a loss to someone somewhere.
    This is made clear in this poem.It is particularly saddening.
    Strange Meeting
    It seemed that out of battle I escaped
    Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped
    Through granites which titanic wars had groined.
    Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned,
    Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred.
    Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared
    With piteous recognition in fixed eyes,
    Lifting distressful hands, as if to bless.
    And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,-
    By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell.
    With a thousand pains that vision's face was grained;
    Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground,
    And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan.
    'Strange friend,' I said, 'here is no cause to mourn.'
    'None,' said that other, 'save the undone years,
    The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
    Was my life also; I went hunting wild
    After the wildest beauty in the world,
    Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
    But mocks the steady running of the hour,
    And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
    For by my glee might many men have laughed,
    And of my weeping something had been left,
    Which must die now. I mean the truth untold,
    The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
    Now men will go content with what we spoiled,
    Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
    They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress.
    None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
    Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
    Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery:
    To miss the march of this retreating world
    Into vain citadels that are not walled.
    Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels,
    I would go up and wash them from sweet wells,
    Even with truths that lie too deep for taint.
    I would have poured my spirit without stint
    But not through wounds; not on the cess of war.
    Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were.
    'I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
    I knew you in this dark: for so you frowned
    Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
    I parried; but my hands were loath and cold.
    Let us sleep now....'/
    When we are able to see death as an ending and not the bridge to another world then will the true horror of such actions and neccesities bury itself into our sad little brains.
    Mark Twain also placed these dichotimies into print with this.
    The War Prayer
    by Mark Twain
    It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.
    Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation
    *God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
    Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --
    An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
    The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
    "I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
    "God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
    "You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
    "O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
    (*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
    It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
    How eerily similar that is to today's present state of affairs.

      
    Silent H
    Member (Idle past 5819 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 30 of 42 (172685)
    01-01-2005 5:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Shaz
    12-31-2004 8:16 PM


    I saw nothing within Tal's initial post, to be confrontational, or hostile. Rather I saw greetings extended, and an explanation of his situation, given in terms of reference applicable to him i.e. ‘sandbox’. In his opening post Tal also stated, he had a lot to learn. Therefore to imply that, he has a mindset of being, contradictory, ‘holier than thou’, or arrogantly beyond learning, is making an assumption.
    That's funny. Go back and look at my first reply. It was post #7.
    Find where it assumed any of the above. I stated confusion because of what I perceived and asked for clarification.
    I also apologized for being abrasive, recognizing that was not usual and admitted that it was because his slang rubbed ME the wrong way. I did not in any way say that everyone at EvC was or should be offended.
    In later posts I clarified this further and so did he in a way that should make very clear that "sandbox" is an insult, especially to those that live in the region. Did you by any chance note that Israel is left out of the sandbox? Gee yet he admits there are desert areas... hmmmmm.
    On top of being an insult, even if glibly thrown and meant in jest, given the tragedy of what is going on there it is additionally callous.
    Like I said, if I was in Indonesia, would it be cool for me to say "greetings from the wading pool" or "greetings from the rock and roll capitol of the world"? Or is it that you like to pretend there is not a great tragedy occuring in Iraq?
    Once again, look at my post. All I stated is what I saw as confusing and asked for clarification. I realize it came off as a bit abrupt and challenging but I said why.
    Might I ask why this guy is being treated like a delicate flower?

    holmes
    "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Shaz, posted 12-31-2004 8:16 PM Shaz has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Tal, posted 01-01-2005 5:35 AM Silent H has replied
     Message 39 by Shaz, posted 01-01-2005 10:04 AM Silent H has replied

      
    Tal
    Member (Idle past 5677 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 31 of 42 (172686)
    01-01-2005 5:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
    01-01-2005 5:20 AM


    quote:
    In later posts I clarified this further and so did he in a way that should make very clear that "sandbox" is an insult, especially to those that live in the region. Did you by any chance note that Israel is left out of the sandbox? Gee yet he admits there are desert areas... hmmmmm.
    We refer to it as the sandbox...because there is sand here, and lots of it. Even here in the Tigris river basin the most you'll see is palm trees and very little grass.
    Isreal has grass and many different types of trees.
    It's not an insult, just a statement of fact. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
    I'm sorry if I don't sugarcoat things to give everybody warm fuzzies about everybody else.
    For more on SAND...click the following link. Warning, bring your sense of humor!
    No webpage found at provided URL: http://1vb-blacksheep.com/vets/tal/john_laws_and_arabs.mp3
    This message has been edited by Tal, 01-01-2005 05:40 AM

    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
    No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 5:20 AM Silent H has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by Silent H, posted 01-01-2005 6:52 AM Tal has replied

      
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