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Author Topic:   Security Rounds, Marines Killing Wounded/Fallujah
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 34 (172852)
01-01-2005 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Primordial Egg
01-01-2005 5:49 PM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
Is there corroboration on this outside this author and that paper? I had not really followed the Fallujah attack. If it is true then it is very shocking. And indeed it makes the essay even more offensive.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 34 (172970)
01-02-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
01-01-2005 7:48 PM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
There are several reports showing how men, women and children were taken out by US sniper fire:

This from an eye-witness to the April offensive

For weeks, Fallujah was a series of sometimes mutually inaccessible pockets, divided by the no-man’s-lands of sniper fire paths. Snipers fired indiscriminately, usually at whatever moved. Of 20 people I saw come into the clinic I observed in a few hours, only five were “military-age males.” I saw old women, old men, a child of 10 shot through the head; terminal, the doctors told me, although in Baghdad they might have been able to save him.

One thing that snipers were very discriminating about – every single ambulance I saw had bullet holes in it. Two I inspected bore clear evidence of specific, deliberate sniping. Friends of mine who went out to gather in wounded people were shot at. When we first reported this fact, we came in for near-universal execration. Many just refused to believe it. Some asked me how I knew that it wasn’t the mujaheddin. Interesting question. Had, say, Brownsville, Texas, been encircled by the Vietnamese and bombarded (which, of course, Mr. Bush courageously protected us from during the Vietnam war era) and Brownsville ambulances been shot up, the question of whether the residents were shooting at their own ambulances, I somehow guess, would not have come up. Later, our reports were confirmed by the Iraqi Ministry of Health and even by the U.S. military.

Also by the same author (includes photos of ambulances with sniper bullet holes).

This article is an interview with a US sniper

Curiously, while I'd certainly not expect the sniper to talk of shooting civilians, the glee with which he talks about taking out targets only seems to reinforce the case....

"It's a sniper's dream," he said in polite, matter-of-fact tones. "You can go anywhere and there are so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are."

...

A sign on the wall of sniper school at Camp Pendleton, Calif., displays a Chinese proverb: "Kill One Man, Terrorize a Thousand." "Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies," said the Marine corporal. "Then I'll use a second shot."

At present, there aren't that many coming independent eye witness reports coming out of Fallujah (which is understandable, I suppose), although I'm informed that at the time there were several pictures on Arab tv showing the injured and dead due to US sniping. Each of the links I've posted are biased to some degree, but I'll leave you to decide whether or not the reports are credible, bearing in mind that the burden of proof for atrocities is always heavier for the losers.

PE

This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 01-02-2005 07:35 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 18 of 34 (172988)
01-02-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Primordial Egg
01-02-2005 7:30 AM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
Okay, no offense but all the sources so far cited seem as if they could have a bias. That does not make them wrong, but I would like some better corrboration.

Except the last cite of course. Kill one terrorize thousands? That whole thing is sickening from beginning to end. Its shit like that which makes me so embarassed and its no wonder that we are viewed as the enemy. Personally anyone running with that mindset and policy is my enemy.

I viewed snipers as a tool for disrupting chains of command and removing important leader figures. I thought it was the bad guys which used it for mindless terrorism and pure demoralization through making men scream in agony. Sick really fucking sick.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3880 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 19 of 34 (173031)
01-02-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Silent H
01-02-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
The Iraqi's view the Americans as the bad guys because the Iraqi's are morally depraved, depraved of free speech, and free thought for so long. The Iraq war is more similar to Americans "liberating" Nazi-Germany, not liberating France.

Well I think that soldier would very likely be dead now, if he didn't kill those wounded. If you don't want to get shot, you wave a white flag or something, you get into a non threatening position, just like when police arrests you.

I think Americans should use guerilla tactics themselves. Just get out of there, sit safe in the Gulf, and let know that if somebody comes on top in Iraq that they don't like, they can expect a bombingrun. I think the bad guys will be more easy to kill when they're on top in Iraq, not as now when they are insurgents.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3967 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 20 of 34 (173044)
01-02-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Syamsu
01-02-2005 12:52 PM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
The Iraqi's view the Americans as the bad guys because the Iraqi's are morally depraved, depraved of free speech, and free thought for so long. The Iraq war is more similar to Americans "liberating" Nazi-Germany, not liberating France.

/sarcasm on

Wow, I see you have the pulse of the Iraqi populace. Did you poll some on the phone or did you personally talk to them?

/sarcasm off


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2966 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 21 of 34 (173100)
01-02-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Primordial Egg
01-02-2005 7:30 AM


Re: Fallujah eye witness report
Let me start this by saying that I decry any wrongful death even in war.

Primordial Egg writes:

There are several reports showing how men, women and children were taken out by US sniper fire

I forgot that the terrorists in question NEVER use women and children in combat situations or to harm their enemy. Do we know anything besides this author's uninformed observation? He heard stories about women and children getting killed outright just for moving. Then he saw bodies and bullet holes in ambulances. Really? Which one of you can tell the difference between a bullet hole from a sniper rifle and one from any other projectile weapon. Shoot, who among you can even tell me what is different about the ammunition from a sniper rifle than that from a regular M-16? Do you think the author knows the difference? Did he know anything at all about the shooter from the bullet holes in the bodies or the ambulances? Did the author actually see the people or ambulances getting shot? Or did he just take the word of the people who say they saw it?
What about the blowing up of the bridge? Sure it blocked access to the hospital but do you think that is the only (or even the main) reason for getting rid of that bridge?
Our soldiers are fighting an enemy who uses the fact that we are Americans to rally the undecideds to their cause. They say we are trying to get rid of their religion and other bullcrap. Al-Jazeera show bodies of kids and women almost exclusively and then takes anecdotal testimonies from biased sources to turn us into demons in their eyes. What's to stop them from plugging a few holes in their ambulances and saying the Nasty Christian Marine Snipers did it? I won't go so far as to say they would kill their own women and children (except when trying to blow-up an infidel or two---collateral damage, ya know) but ambulances don't cry out in pain. BTW, any reports of injuries in those ambulance shoot-outs?

Personnally I doubt seriously if any snipers are targeting civilians, noncombatants or ambulances. 1. They are too well trained for that and 2. They take pride in taking out the High value targets.

And holmes: The 1 vs 100 phrase that makes you "sick" refers to using snipers to kill those high value targets thus striking fear into the enemy soldier's hearts. That way those soldiers would think twice before wandering back into a sniper controlled area.

Additionally, I find it surprising that a group of people so staunch in their critique of unsubstantiated claims is so willing to accept this report without any critical analysis.

I am in Antarctica right now so I won't be able to just jump up and reply to the expected criticisms of my post.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 22 of 34 (173106)
01-02-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Syamsu
01-02-2005 12:52 PM


The Iraqi's view the Americans as the bad guys because the Iraqi's are morally depraved, depraved of free speech, and free thought for so long.

I think you meant deprived. As in Syamsu is deprived of knowledge regarding the situation because he mainly answers his own questions for information.

Well I think that soldier would very likely be dead now, if he didn't kill those wounded.

The article was written by a guy who wasn't there. He was safe.

I think Americans should use guerilla tactics themselves.

Brilliant as ever.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Syamsu, posted 01-02-2005 12:52 PM Syamsu has not yet responded

    
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 34 (173108)
01-02-2005 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by LinearAq
01-02-2005 4:20 PM


And holmes: The 1 vs 100 phrase that makes you "sick" refers to using snipers to kill those high value targets thus striking fear into the enemy soldier's hearts. That way those soldiers would think twice before wandering back into a sniper controlled area.

Sorry but I should have been clearer. I got what the phrase was supposed to mean. Indeed I think I mentioned the very types of actions you just did in my post.

The reason I was upset is that it was quite clear that the phrase was now being taken out of context by snipers to cover actual actions of blatant terrorism. It did seem to suggest that their new methods were being taught in the school with that motto (with the motto representing the methods).

Did you read the article? It appears not to have been written by a liberal source. In fact you could see me questioning the other fallujah articles, right?

The soldiers in question were essentially admitting to torturing enemies at a distance in order to create demoralization through sadistic acts.

The fact that a soldier described his "hunts" on the job as "personal" is about the very opposite of what I would expect.

I am sorry I was not more clear. Tell me you read that article and liked what you saw.

Additionally, I find it surprising that a group of people so staunch in their critique of unsubstantiated claims is so willing to accept this report without any critical analysis.

Show me where I was uncritical. I still am waiting for better material on fallujah. Indeed it appears several people have been asking for corroboration on different pieces.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that yet again there is a rush to judgement on what I think and believe, despite evidence to the contrary.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by LinearAq, posted 01-02-2005 4:20 PM LinearAq has responded

Replies to this message:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2966 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 24 of 34 (173221)
01-03-2005 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Silent H
01-02-2005 4:44 PM


An Apology
It would seem that I did rush to judge. After rereading your posts I saw that you did try to provide a little sanity amoung the extreme posts that were before yours. I got carried away by that same extremism and it landed on you. Oops...wrong target.

I definitely do not agree with the guy who wrote the letter...at least not to that extreme. I read the article and the only really upsetting part is the Marine corporal saying that he purposely wounds before killing. That is wrong and if he is found out he will no longer be a sniper. Sorry folks... that shit just ain't allowed. Good riddance BTW.

The real problem is we are in a war, and they are messy things despite "precision" weapons. Resources are always strained (interpreters), people don't act rationally when in a panic (referenced mostly to civilians). Add to that an enemy who has no problem sending out human bombs and you have a recipe for bad things happening to those who aren't our enemy and don't deserve.

One thing that is not mentioned is the tendancy of our military personel to characterize the enemy as something less than human. This has been done in every war and continues today. Sure the commanders pay lip service to "equal rights" and saving the people of Iraq. However, the general foot soldier uses the term "raghead" and stories are circulated that indicate the Arabs are nasty, dirty, stupid and backward. All Arabs, not just our enemies. I know this 'cause I've been in the military and seen the stories circulate. I hated it then and feel the same now.

edited to fix the sig

This message has been edited by LinearAq, 01-03-2005 00:36 AM


Remember; your enemy rarely thinks he is evil. Knowing this can help you find a means of compromising and finding peace...or, in failing that, you can kill him without wasting precious energy on hate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 01-02-2005 4:44 PM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3967 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 25 of 34 (173241)
01-03-2005 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by LinearAq
01-03-2005 12:34 AM


Re: An Apology
One thing that is not mentioned is the tendancy of our military personel to characterize the enemy as something less than human.

However, the general foot soldier uses the term "raghead" and stories are circulated that indicate the Arabs are nasty, dirty, stupid and backward. All Arabs, not just our enemies.

To the first quote let me say that yes, I do look at ANYONE, Arab or otherwise, that saws people's heads off with a knife (films it and puts it on the internet no less, as less than human. I've seen beheading videos where these animals are beheading some poor Iraqi guy because they accuse him of being CIA.

As to your 2d quote, I'll call BS on that one. That's a pretty cynical view of the average US Trooper. You make it seem like we are drooling idiots that all think at the 70IQ level. Duhhhhhhh...all arabs are ragheads...*wipe drool off mouth*.

We're a wee sharper than that my friend. You don't have to give much credit, but please extend a little. Most of us here work with, or at least see, the Average Iraqi everyday. We employ them to do work around the bases and palaces. They are just Joe Schmo who is trying to provide a living for their families and are very nice people.

If you don't stereotype me, I won't stereotype you.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 26 of 34 (173304)
01-03-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tal
01-03-2005 2:01 AM


To the first quote let me say that yes, I do look at ANYONE, Arab or otherwise, that saws people's heads off with a knife (films it and puts it on the internet no less, as less than human.

Well you do understand that is one group within the many which are fighting us, no? Do you paint anyone that is fighting us with that same brush?

Also, do you understand that such tactics were the same ones (save posting on the internet) they were using against the soviets and we approved, and used against their own insurgents (in afghanistan) and we approved, and some of our friends are still using (check out uzbekistan) and we approve?

What we obviously don't like is seeing really brutal acts. That is why we downplay the airing of those commited by our side and play up those of the other side.

Does their stuff look more brutal? To me it does. Does it look ignorant? Hell yes as they can't seem to figure out who is a legitimate target. Does it look like what we allow to go on to our enemies when we catch them and "render" them to people without the same legal ties on torture and killing... yes.

I would ask if you read the sniper account and if it was not offensive to you in about the same manner?

We're a wee sharper than that my friend. You don't have to give much credit, but please extend a little.

I will extend a little, but I think there is great ignorance and bad habits among the troops. You yourself have exhibited some of this in your first posts here and I saw some in the clip you gave.

I think what you are missing is that the average Iraqi (and anyone else) cannot live inside your head. While you may be friendly and actually caring for Iraqis, when the first word out of a soldier's mouth is "stupid fucking bitch" this reality is instantly annihilated for anyone.

In the heat of the moment, as for example in the piece you provided, it is understandable that people swear and use epithets. However you will also see it used routinely in that tape outside of the hot moments and that starts to form a habit. It really is something that has to be disciplined out.

I have friends that are Iraqi and am helping fund a documentary about Iraq by Iraqis (and before you wonder, many were glad for the invasion). The problem is they get treated on average like dirt by the American soldiers. The director/photographer got this not just from Iraqis, but interviewed troops as well and you could see the condescension and bad habits.

This does not mean that all or most are this way, but that is the average encounter. Thus that is the average impression.

I remember I had a friend in school who was fresh out of a tour with the army and he was constantly with the racial epithets. It had been drilled into him during his service (which was through the first gulf war). I found it amusing because I know he did not mean to be insulting, he just didn't realize what he was saying anymore... bad habits.

One day we were working with a very very PC guy who was not aware of my friend's habits and my friend referred to the teacher as a dothead. The PC guy went ballistic and my friend was stunned. He simply had no clue his words could be taken so badly. He was visibly shaken by the response. He was also much more careful about what he said in the future.

Maybe that was a good thing.

That may explain why I am a bit tough on you. I know what is going on image wise for us over there. Bad habits, bad image.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3967 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 27 of 34 (173311)
01-03-2005 5:17 AM


I forgot that the terrorists in question NEVER use women and children in combat situations or to harm their enemy. Do we know anything besides this author's uninformed observation?

I can't talk about the sniping in Fallujah, but I can tell you that people I know have shot women and children.

Example 1: PVT Snuffy was watching his sector with an M-240B (Machine Gun). 2 insurgents run across his sector carrying AKs/RPGs. Snuffy shoots them. 2 kids run up to the cropses and proceed to pick the weapons up. Snuffy shoots the kids.

PVT Snuffy had to be shipped back to the states a couple of days later. He couldn't handle the fact that he had shot kids, even though he was supposed to and was right in doing so.

Example 2: PVT Schmo is pulling guard at the entrance to an FOB (Forward Operating Base). An Iraqi woman starts walking up to him. He tells her in Arabin to stop. She doesn't. He raises his weapon and repeats the command. She doesn't. He shoots her.

He calls his chain of command and tells them what happened. His CO comes out and Schmo is very upset because the woman wouldn't stop. Upon inspecting the body, it is found that she has 20 grenades and many nails strapped to her body that were hidden by her cloak.

So yes, we do shoot women and children if the circumstance warrants.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 28 of 34 (173316)
01-03-2005 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tal
01-03-2005 5:17 AM


Please stop the apologetics.

You and I both know there are plenty of cases of unwarranted shootings of civilians. From the overanxious pvt itchytriggerfinger, to the sadistic pvt anygoodiraqiisadeadone.

There are documented cases. If it is true that you see stats all the time then you already know this is true.

The question is if it is the majority of cases and in the case of fallujah (if allegations are true) then run amok.

I am not quick to accept any allegations without some evidence. I think there is some evidence that Fallujah may have involved something more than good conduct. Even still I would like more corroboration.

Apologetics just makes us look more guilty. Don't worry about what we did over there, because look at what we did over here! It's BS and anyone can see through it.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tal, posted 01-03-2005 5:17 AM Tal has not yet responded

    
Tal
Member (Idle past 3967 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 29 of 34 (173323)
01-03-2005 7:23 AM


You and I both know there are plenty of cases of unwarranted shootings of civilians.

Source?

Please stop the apologetics.

Who said I was apologizing for anything? Both of the examples I listed warranted the shooting of those individuals.

Now, I do know of cases where civillians have been shot that were not supposed to be. The individuals that did the shooting are being tried in courts martial.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 01-03-2005 11:05 AM Tal has responded

    
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 34 (173404)
01-03-2005 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tal
01-03-2005 7:23 AM


Source?

This is a game that I do not play. After being here for a while I have run out of any patience running and getting sources for 1) things that pretty obviously we both know, 2) are easy enough to get online using simple searches, and/or 3) for people that are likely to disappear or dismiss the evidence provided.

The fact is that at the very end of your post you put this...

Now, I do know of cases where civillians have been shot that were not supposed to be. The individuals that did the shooting are being tried in courts martial.

Does that not specifically admit that you know of cases of unwarranted shootings???

This makes twice where you asked for sources for something you and I both know you know. Please do not do this. Only ask when you really do not know, do not have time or ability to get such info, and truly do not believe I have evidence for what I am talking about. Otherwise it is a discourteous waste of my time.

If you thought I was meaning unwarranted shootings in Fallujah, then let me make it clear I was not talking about that.

Who said I was apologizing for anything? Both of the examples I listed warranted the shooting of those individuals.

The context of your examples was to create an excuse for what happens. The issue under discussion (or brought up by a poster) was unwarranted killings.

You addressed this with examples of how heartbroken a specific soldier was when killing someone they did not want to, and a person taking out someone as they should though having doubts and it turned out for the best.

That does nothing to actually debate the issue, but rather turn it into an emotional appeal for the US soldiers. The fact is we can (and should) admit the cases you are talking about, and still be able to deal with the other issues.

I will ask again, did you read the sniper account (the one by the snipers) and was it not terribly upsetting from the view point of a moral soldier?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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