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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 466 (150804)
10-18-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
10-11-2004 2:41 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Pharisees and Wannabes
jar writes:
Hitler and his senior staff, based on their own writings, were Christians and believed that they were acting based on Biblical teachings.
So we have to base our judgement on what a person DOES rather than what they say or proclaim....right, Jar? Who or what does a person worship? I use this term loosely...for an atheist, for example, who or what passion occupies their time, talent, and attention? I must say, Jar that you did open a very large and productive can of worms with your Sheep and Goats scripture. Good job!
Brian writes:
Not everyone who calls me LORD will enter into heaven, surely you have to walk the walk to be a Christian?
Yet nobody that I know walks this walk 100% of the time. Is salvation merely a huge game of cosmic musical chairs? If the music (your life) stops at a time when you are not doing or thinking good works, do you forfeit a seat at the great table in the sky? Obviously, we can not really judge anyone. Only God does that, according to my belief.
Brian writes:
Shouldn't that be 'throughout history there have been some very very bad people who thought they were Christians'?
Good point, Brian. I might add that many if not most of the early Popes certainly were suspect. Just because a person thinks that they are saved does not mean that they are saved. Salvation, in my view, is based upon TRUST and RELATIONSHIP rather than EFFORT. It does follow, however, that if one trusts Jesus and loves Him, fostering a daily relationship of prayer and awareness of Christ, one WILL do many good works.
Lam writes:
Many people, including myself, would call what you just said the no true scottsman fallacy. You've created a definition of a christian that excludes just about everyone that you personally don't think worthy of being called christian.
As for me, I am not the judge of you, Lam. Personally, I have nothing against you. You have no more sin in your life than anyone else on this board or anywhere.We all have issues.
Brian writes:
There is nothing more hypocritical than someone who thinks they are a Christian. I have only met a handful of people that I think deserve the name, there are obviously many others, but I have only met a few, and I have met an awful lot of 'Christians'.
Personally, I think if someone is saved they behave in a Christ-like way, I do not see the people you mentioned acting like this.
As for myself, I have come to the realization that I NEED Jesus every minute of every day. I behave in a Christ-like way less than I should. One clarification, here, Brian. Is a Christian someone who behaves in a Christ-like way? If so, I am a Christian perhaps 5% of the time. I call myself a work in progress, and I suppose that the next question is this: If I, or you, or anyone else is to be considered a work in progress (towards salvation) WHO is it that completes the work?
Brian writes:
When you say 'saved' in the OP, what exactly do you mean, saved from what?
I have heard several answers for this one. Some say that we are saved from God Himself. Others say that we are saved from our own imperfections by allowing a "perfect Spirit" to in effect become our patch. I prefer to use the term adopted. We are adopted into the family of the perfect Spirit of love. One concern that many have is this: Must I lose my identity?
Brian writes:
One of the criteria you present for being saved is to 'Love God', can you tell me how an atheist or a Buddhist will ever fulfil this?
I liken the event to "meeting Jesus." If this meeting between God in the flesh and man is initiated by God, it is then up to us to accept the relationship. If I walk down a street, I encounter many people, yet I may meet only a few of them. If Jesus is who He says He is, one will be changed upon meeting Him. To an atheist, the only requirement is not to believe that this will happen so much as being open to the possibility of positive change. To a Buddhist who "meets" Jesus, they will then become a Buddhist with a personal relationship with Jesus. They will not become a Southern Baptist ex Buddhist! It may well be, however, that as the life of that person changes, they may choose a different religion, but this is NOT about religion. A Christian is one who Knows Christ rather than one who teaches Christian principles.
Jar writes:
What I don't want to do is get into "What a true Christian is" or what the definitions of salvation or damnation are.
And so, I will shut up, now. Enough of my preaching!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 10-19-2004 12:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 197 of 466 (150808)
10-18-2004 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 10:47 AM


Theft?
So if adultory is ongoing then the person isn't a Christian. Ok.
What about if they steal something? Are the not a Christian then? When they stop stealing are they a Christian again? It is turned on and off is it?
than what one isn't.
No I think you were saying that so-and-so IS NOT a Christian because they did such and such which is not in line with Christ's teachings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 10:47 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 198 of 466 (150809)
10-18-2004 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 2:45 PM


Chasing
Schraf and others will have something to say in the new thread I'm sure.
However, you made the orginal statment and therefore come first in line to support it.
(btw Mike, I'll help you here. The answer is that there isn't enough know to calculate the probablilty in any way that isn't easy to poke full of holes.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 2:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 199 of 466 (150812)
10-18-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by AdminNosy
10-18-2004 2:59 PM


Re: Chasing
Message #172 " The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe. "
This is what Amhodli said - then Shraff got on the train - I then provided my assertion.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 200 of 466 (150815)
10-18-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 3:11 PM


Re: Chasing
But did you ask them to back it up? (I know, I know, it is off topic here ) Anyway, one thing you can do in the new thread is ask for their backup. (but, hint, it is also not really known just easier to make a good case for)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 3:11 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 466 (150984)
10-19-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by AdminNosy
10-18-2004 3:19 PM


Re: Chasing
"New Thread"??? Wassup, Nosy?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 202 of 466 (150991)
10-19-2004 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
10-18-2004 2:49 PM


Re: Back on Topic
So we have to base our judgement on what a person DOES rather than what they say or proclaim....right, Jar?
Yup. As my Mom used to say, "Quit sticking your sister's pigtails in the inkwell."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 10-18-2004 2:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 203 of 466 (175358)
01-10-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-11-2004 11:22 AM


Holy Spirit
Have you ever recieved a baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I am sorry if I ever asked you this question before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 11:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 204 of 466 (175360)
01-10-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by NosyNed
10-18-2004 2:56 PM


Re: Theft?
What about if they steal something? Are the not a Christian then? When they stop stealing are they a Christian again? It is turned on and off is it?
They are Christian the whole time. They will pay for their sins, as we all do. They need to repent of their sins, and ask for forgiveness, and with God's mighty love for us, they are forgiven.
Keep in mind that if you do it again, then you really didn't repent.
Ephesians 3
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Once you recieve the Holy Spirit in your life, you are born again in the spirit. It is then that you no longer desire the things of this world, but desire things of God, and his ways.
The Holy Spirit ministers to each of us little by little, and improves our character, and makes us more like Christ(this process can take years, and not everyone completes their training) For many are called, but few are chosen. People wihtout the Holy Spirit in their lives are just acting on faith, and goodness.
I would find it impossible for me, once the Holy Spirit shows me what I am doing wrong, to ever do it again. I would question the authenticity of someone who behaves in that mannor. They surely aren't acting in Christ. but hey who knows, who am I to judge. We are not perfect just because we are Christian, or born again. We are still human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 2:56 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 205 of 466 (175361)
01-10-2005 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
10-19-2004 12:13 AM


New thread on probability
I never did create that ( or have forgotten).
I twas to be a thread where Mike could show how the probability of life arising can be calculated so he can back up his assertion that it is too improbable.
There didn't seem to be any more interest. If there is I will create the thread (or find one - it has been done before)
ABE
Abiogenisis by the Numbers would be a place where it is on topic, I think.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-10-2005 00:58 AM

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 206 of 466 (175362)
01-10-2005 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by coffee_addict
10-11-2004 2:49 PM


Re: Back on Topic
No wonder you "opened your eyes"

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 207 of 466 (175363)
01-10-2005 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-11-2004 4:31 PM


IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."
Let me try that one on my wife, honey, I love you, but I do not believe you exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 4:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 208 of 466 (175414)
01-10-2005 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by riVeRraT
01-10-2005 12:37 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
What does that have to do with the topic?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 12:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 7:50 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 209 of 466 (175415)
01-10-2005 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by riVeRraT
01-10-2005 1:04 AM


What does that have to do with the topic?
See above!

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 1:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 210 of 466 (175430)
01-10-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
01-10-2005 6:42 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
Everything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:53 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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