Questions for ID believers

You just described the working of a highly complicated organ and what I don't understand is how you can say that it didn't need any intelligence to exist!?Every part of the human body is far more complicated than all human technology put together. If it took intelligence for those technologies to exist, how much more did it take intelligence for humans to exist?

Do you imply that there is a more simple design for the brain that will also give you the same functionality and reliability and at the same time be just as compact and light-weight?

Hold on there a bit, what computers can do today doesn't even start to compare to what our brain can do.A person's brain has to:
Receive, process and store thousands of light, sound, smell and touch signals coming from all over the body in realtime.
Do complicated calculations of the external environment and body movement and it's effect, for instance to catch a ball.
Learn to understand a complicated language system made up of visual and audio inputs without any help from the outside.
Take data from a vast storage capacity, process it and make decisions based on a combination of that and what is percieved by your senses.
Store the complete account of what you sensed, thought and felt during your whole life.
Feel and show and try to control emotions based on memory and present experience.
And to top it all off, all of this can happen at the same time and usually at least a number of them does.We can't even make a computer conscious of it's own existence, so don't act like we have found a way of bettering the awesome design we see in the way God has created us.

God, by definition is uncreated and infinite in power and intelligence. Since He has created us and everything we see around us, it makes no sense to try and define Him in terms of matter or energy.A computer program requires a programmer to exist, but you won't find the programmer anywhere in the program, just like you won't find an engineer in the electronic device he designed or a cook in the food that he prepared. In the same way it is totally illogical to look for the Creator in His creation.All information we see in this world ultimately comes from Him, because there is no other possible way for it to have come into existence. Not from mutations or from natural selection, because in both cases information is lost and not gained.Where then could the information code we find in DNA have come form? Only one place and that is the Almighty God who has created each and every one of us and when we are done with our journey here on earth, we will see Him and then it will be too late to start to believe.

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Originally posted by monkenstick:
he doesn't rewrite code from scratch, like john carmack. He reuses code in all of his creations

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Molecular biology shows us today that similar structures in different creatures are specified by different genes. Before you embarrass yourself again, take a look at this site:
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research

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Originally posted by monkenstick:
Lots of bugs too.

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What bugs are you talking about? What we see as bugs today, might have been necessary a thousand years ago.

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Originally posted by nos482:
But computers have only been around for a half a century and look just how far they've come in comparison. What took our brains millions of years to evolve has only took them decades. The evolution of the computer is many factors higher than with our organic brains.

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You are terribly confused if you think computers are evolving themselves. Without human design and manufacture them, you wouldn't even be able to find a transistor on this planet. It's not evolution, but technological advance.

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Originally posted by nos482:
Plus, many AI experts now realize that you don't start with human level intelligence, but with lower forms of life and work your way up learning just a brain actually functions along the way. They have had much success with robots using insect level intelligence instead. They also realize that if you want a human level intelligence you have to grow it gradually instead of starting at the top.

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This is still humans designing the robots. As the AI level increases, they are continuously adding information to the previous designs. Mutations and natural selection on the other hand are both cases where information is lost. If intelligence had to start simple, like you just said, where did the information input come from?

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Originally posted by nos482:
Your problem is that you believe we started at the top. The evidence says otherwise.

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Evidence or theory? Most attempts to prove evolution just brought into the light more problems for anybody that wanted to believe in it. And because people are afraid to admit the reality that we have to give account to God when we leave this earth, they will keep on believing the myth of evolution blindly.

God has shown Himself to us through His creation and through the Bible, but Puff and TF's sister are imaginary, but I think this is the wrong thread to go into that into too much detail. Many people who tried to disprove the Bible or the existence if Jesus Christ have turned to Christianity as a result. That's more than any fairy tale character can say.

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Originally posted by Rationalist:
We can make computers evolve and design themselves if we make them work just like natural biological evolution. These systems are called genetic or evolutionary systems.

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Your comment about humans creating computers is an obvious non-sequitur. The point is we can make things that, once we set them going, evolve on their own without outside intelligent design.

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Your own words speak against what you are trying to say:
"We can make computers evolve"
"we make them work"
"we can make things"
"we set them going"
I don't see the part where there is no intelligent interference from the outside.

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Originally posted by Rationalist:
The evolutionary system the builders set up to immitate nature (genes plus mutations plus selection) are adding new information to the previous design. The designers job is simply to make sure it immitates natures evolution as closely as possible.

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That's exactly my point! In evolution simulations they use mutations to add information, but in real life that doesn't happen except for some very rare cases.

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Evolutionary systems always cause information to increase, especially specified information. Why is it that creationists don't know this? It's not very difficult to understand.

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Information doesn't increase when an animal species where some have long hair and some short remain in a cold environment for a long time and those with short hair die out. The short hair gene dies in the process, while the species are specialised for a cold environment.

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It is generated in response to the environment via natural selection.. just as with natural biological evolution.

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Where do we see actual examples of information being added to a species today? There is no scientific evidence for this crucial detail that evolutoinists accept without thinking twice.

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Information does not obey any sort of conservation law. It is spontaneously created through the permutations of physical states, and can be destroyed by changing those physical states.

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Information isn't created spontaneously. Data maybe, but not information. To get information, you need to know first of all which data to take and how to interpret it. For instance if I take a French book, but I can only understand English, the book won't mean anything to me.To successfully transmit or receive information, you have to know the correct code/language/protocol eihter in which to encode it or by which to decode it. No code or language or protocol can just appear out of nowhere, it in itself needs intelligence to design it.

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Originally posted by nos482:
This alone proves that the human brain is a product of evolution.

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HOW???

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Originally posted by nos482:
We're self-programming from experiences through our enivironment.

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No, we are born with all the necessary "software" to receive input, process it and act in response to that. The programming part was done when God created us.

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Originally posted by nos482:
Plus information isn't lost since we still retain many of our primative instincts.

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Our "primative" instincts are in many cases a means of survival, so they would obviously not be lost. However, if blonds stopped taking part in human reproduction completely (both male and female), a few generations down the line the blond hair gene can die out completely. We do not see cases of natural blue or purple hair, because it was never a part of human genes and never will be. [QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
What problems?
Modern dating techniques seems to indicate to a young earth.
Molecular biology is also showing that homology doesn't help evolusionists, because similar structures in different creatures are specified by different genes. [QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Afraid? With your idea we are nothing more than puppets to the will of your god, that nothing we come up with is actually ours to call our own. We didn't earn our intelligence, it was handed to us at the say so of your god. That is a far more scary thought than what is actually the truth.No, I believe that there is something better than this world, commonly called heaven, where there is no death or sickness or poverty or crime. I don't see what is so scary about that.

Both Christianity and Islam believes in one Almighty Creator, so I don't really see your point.

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Are you so sure? Do you know the physical capabilities of our brains, of modern computers?

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Can a computer work out a algorythm to break a code or learn to really understand a language like we do?

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Do complicated calculations of the external environment and body movement and it's effect, for instance to catch a ball.
Robots have been trained to catch balls.

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And what else can it do then? Run, trip, lose the ball, regain balance and then try to catch it again?

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Learn to understand a complicated language system made up of visual and audio inputs without any help from the outside.
Computers have been taught to do this to a remarkable degree.

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OK show me the computer that can learn a language in the same way that a baby does.

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Store the complete account of what you sensed, thought and felt during your whole life. The human mind does not do this.

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How come people under hypnosis can remember just about anything from their past. [QUOTE]Feel and show and try to control emotions based on memory and present experience. Computers do this about as well as humans. Emotions are trivial to produce in software.[/QOUTE]When you talk about producing emotions in software you are revealing the fact that it is a human controlling the computer's emotions.

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Computers are great at doing things simultaneously.

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No, because of serial processing they slow down as tasks become more.

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We can't even make a computer conscious of it's own existence..
This is practically the easiest thing to do with a computer, make its own state a part of its perceptual space. Again, as with emotions, it's not the self perception that is difficult, but the REST of the large scale awareness and cognitive functions that we consider human.

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Like you said, the computer can't be truly aware of itself or the world around it or the people that it is interacting with in the same sense as humans do. It can't hope or dream or enjoy life.

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The design of our minds is inherently flawed. We've evolved to make invalid causal inferences, to respond to environmental stress with xenophobia and hate, to randomly believe in a variety of nonsense based on little or no evidence. We can not truly understand abstract mathematics, or theories such as quantum mechanics or relativity. We find it extremely difficult to learn and remember new information, languages, knowledge. Or memory is imperfect, and we progressively lose what we know imperceptibly as it is overwritten with new impressions.

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God created us to live and interact with Him, our environment and with each other, not just to process information. Would you really prefer life without any emotions or hopes or dreams or love just so you can remember everything even though it doesn't mean anything to you? Without the lifegiving spirit that God has put inside of us that enables us to love & hate and to be happy or sad and to hope for a better tomorrow, we would have been nothing.

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There are a wide variety of problems with our current mental architecture. These can and probably will be corrected eventually.

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God gave us enough intelligence to realise who we are and if we are really honest with ourselves, that we need Him. And He gave us emotions so that we can experience His love for us and love Him back aswell.