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Author Topic:   Questions for ID believers
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 50 (17597)
09-17-2002 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Rationalist
09-17-2002 10:52 AM


Computers tend to store information better than humans. Humans only perceive their storage to be error free, it isn't.

Computers are also faster than humans in querying for information in large data stores.

I seem to remember reading somewhere ( ) that if you took what we actually learn throughout our lifetimes that it would all fit on a 650 meg CD.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Rationalist, posted 09-17-2002 10:52 AM Rationalist has not yet responded

  
Rationalist
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 50 (17598)
09-17-2002 11:27 AM


quote:
You are terribly confused if you think computers are evolving themselves. Without human design and manufacture them, you wouldn't even be able to find a transistor on this planet. It's not evolution, but technological advance.

We can make computers evolve and design themselves if we make them work just like natural biological evolution. These systems are called genetic or evolutionary systems.

Your comment about humans creating computers is an obvious non-sequitur. The point is we can make things that, once we set them going, evolve on their own without outside intelligent design.

quote:
This is still humans designing the robots. As the AI level increases, they are continuously adding information to the previous designs.

WRONG.

The evolutionary system the builders set up to immitate nature (genes plus mutations plus selection) are adding new information to the previous design. The designers job is simply to make sure it immitates natures evolution as closely as possible.

quote:
Mutations and natural selection on the other hand are both cases where information is lost.

Wrong.

Evolutionary systems always cause information to increase, especially specified information. Why is it that creationists don't know this? It's not very difficult to understand.

quote:
If intelligence had to start simple, like you just said, where did the information input come from?

It is generated in response to the environment via natural selection.. just as with natural biological evolution.

Information does not obey any sort of conservation law. It is spontaneously created through the permutations of physical states, and can be destroyed by changing those physical states.

Specified information is that information who's phenotypic effects lead directly or indirectly to maintain the functioning of a feedback loop. An example of such a system is a living organism or a communications link.

Any information which maintains the system in equilibrium and does not disrupt the feedback loop is "specified", and any other information is unspecified. When considering a communciations link, communication is established in a loop (acknowlegement is sometimes immediate, sometimes delayed), in which information that makes up part of the information loop is delivered and understood. If the message is garbled or nonsensical, the send-acknowledge loop is disrupted, and the system does not function (you hang up the phone).

The same goes for biological organisms. The information culled by evolution is that which serves to maintain the basic feedback loop of the living system. The message is culled from the possible set of all messages through the process of selection. All messages of the stochastic set of possible messages are sent, and those that continue the feedback loop are retained.

On a larger scale, information systems themselves are memetically evolving. The possible set of messages on an information system such as a computer network, phone system, or even direct conversation have a survival quotient. Those communications which are easy to successfully transmit, and have a great likelyhood of being retransmitted to others, survive. Those that do not transmit well, or are likely to not be retransmitted die. The communication of this specified information forms a larger scale set of circulating networks, where large numbers of people pass on the information to others in an endlessly repeating cycles.

What we end up with is... well.. things like democracy, evolution, rock music, and even Christianity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mopsveldmuis, posted 09-18-2002 8:53 AM Rationalist has not yet responded

  
Rationalist
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 50 (17600)
09-17-2002 11:31 AM


It occurs to me that a chain letter is precisely the sort of meme that is most likely to succeed. It ensures its own survival by: being easy to copy, exploiting both the fear and greed of the individuals recieving the letter to motivate them to repeat the message, and exploiting the communications medium for easy duplication (especially email).
  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 50 (17649)
09-18-2002 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by nos482
09-17-2002 9:38 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Now who is speaking of fairy tales. Christianity is stagnating. The fastest growing religion now is Islam.[/B][/QUOTE]

That, my friends, is a hint how to tell the difference between religions and fairy tales! LOL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nos482, posted 09-17-2002 9:38 AM nos482 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 7:42 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 50 (17666)
09-18-2002 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Andya Primanda
09-18-2002 3:32 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Now who is speaking of fairy tales. Christianity is stagnating. The fastest growing religion now is Islam.[/B][/QUOTE]

That, my friends, is a hint how to tell the difference between religions and fairy tales! LOL

[/B][/QUOTE]

Give or take another few centuries and Islam will be in the same boat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-18-2002 3:32 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 7:57 AM nos482 has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 36 of 50 (17668)
09-18-2002 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by nos482
09-18-2002 7:42 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Now who is speaking of fairy tales. Christianity is stagnating. The fastest growing religion now is Islam.[/B][/QUOTE]

That, my friends, is a hint how to tell the difference between religions and fairy tales! LOL

[/B][/QUOTE]

Give or take another few centuries and Islam will be in the same boat. [/B][/QUOTE]

Take a gander at your old sparring partner Wordswordman....he is now telling me that jews are prime candidates for conversion and that Islam is just plain bad.....it would take a couple of centuries to disentagle him from his psychosis


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 7:42 AM nos482 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 8:46 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 50 (17675)
09-18-2002 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Mammuthus
09-18-2002 7:57 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mammuthus:

Take a gander at your old sparring partner Wordswordman....he is now telling me that jews are prime candidates for conversion and that Islam is just plain bad.....it would take a couple of centuries to disentagle him from his psychosis[/B][/QUOTE]

He must be a Southern Baptist than. And we all know just how tolerant they are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 7:57 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 9:11 AM nos482 has not yet responded

  
mopsveldmuis
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 50 (17676)
09-18-2002 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rationalist
09-17-2002 11:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Rationalist:
We can make computers evolve and design themselves if we make them work just like natural biological evolution. These systems are called genetic or evolutionary systems.

Your comment about humans creating computers is an obvious non-sequitur. The point is we can make things that, once we set them going, evolve on their own without outside intelligent design.


Your own words speak against what you are trying to say:
"We can make computers evolve"
"we make them work"
"we can make things"
"we set them going"
I don't see the part where there is no intelligent interference from the outside.

quote:
Originally posted by Rationalist:
The evolutionary system the builders set up to immitate nature (genes plus mutations plus selection) are adding new information to the previous design. The designers job is simply to make sure it immitates natures evolution as closely as possible.

That's exactly my point! In evolution simulations they use mutations to add information, but in real life that doesn't happen except for some very rare cases.

quote:
Evolutionary systems always cause information to increase, especially specified information. Why is it that creationists don't know this? It's not very difficult to understand.

Information doesn't increase when an animal species where some have long hair and some short remain in a cold environment for a long time and those with short hair die out. The short hair gene dies in the process, while the species are specialised for a cold environment.

quote:
It is generated in response to the environment via natural selection.. just as with natural biological evolution.

Where do we see actual examples of information being added to a species today? There is no scientific evidence for this crucial detail that evolutoinists accept without thinking twice.

quote:
Information does not obey any sort of conservation law. It is spontaneously created through the permutations of physical states, and can be destroyed by changing those physical states.

Information isn't created spontaneously. Data maybe, but not information. To get information, you need to know first of all which data to take and how to interpret it. For instance if I take a French book, but I can only understand English, the book won't mean anything to me.

To successfully transmit or receive information, you have to know the correct code/language/protocol eihter in which to encode it or by which to decode it. No code or language or protocol can just appear out of nowhere, it in itself needs intelligence to design it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rationalist, posted 09-17-2002 11:27 AM Rationalist has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 9:09 AM mopsveldmuis has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 39 of 50 (17677)
09-18-2002 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by mopsveldmuis
09-18-2002 8:53 AM


Your own words speak against what you are trying to say:
"We can make computers evolve"
"we make them work"
"we can make things"
"we set them going"
I don't see the part where there is no intelligent interference from the outside.
*******************************

Since you ignored my posts I will keep nagging you....I said before that computers are a false analogy as an evolutionary system. They do not reproduce hence no evolution.
-------------------------------

quote:
Originally posted by Rationalist:
The evolutionary system the builders set up to immitate nature (genes plus mutations plus selection) are adding new information to the previous design. The designers job is simply to make sure it immitates natures evolution as closely as possible.

That's exactly my point! In evolution simulations they use mutations to add information, but in real life that doesn't happen except for some very rare cases.
------------------------------------------------

Are you going to provide citations or data for this or are you going to keep making false assertions based on ignorance?

quote:
Evolutionary systems always cause information to increase, especially specified information. Why is it that creationists don't know this? It's not very difficult to understand.

Information doesn't increase when an animal species where some have long hair and some short remain in a cold environment for a long time and those with short hair die out. The short hair gene dies in the process, while the species are specialised for a cold environment.
--------------------------------------------------

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you get your biology lessons from the back of a box of cereal? Hair morphology is a quantitative trait first off...but nevertheless, the gene is there but the short hair allele would be selected for and likely fixed in the population. In humans sometimes older versions of an allele reappear by mutation causing atavisms like the two kids in the circus in Mexico who had a mutation leading them to be completely covered with hair like chimps.

quote:
It is generated in response to the environment via natural selection.. just as with natural biological evolution.

Where do we see actual examples of information being added to a species today? There is no scientific evidence for this crucial detail that evolutoinists accept without thinking twice.
_____________________________________________

If you actually learned to read rather than make assertions it might help your case.....LINEs, SINEs, exon shuffling, HERVs all show increases of information..even today i.e. syncytin.
----------------------------------

quote:
Information does not obey any sort of conservation law. It is spontaneously created through the permutations of physical states, and can be destroyed by changing those physical states.

Information isn't created spontaneously. Data maybe, but not information. To get information, you need to know first of all which data to take and how to interpret it. For instance if I take a French book, but I can only understand English, the book won't mean anything to me.

To successfully transmit or receive information, you have to know the correct code/language/protocol eihter in which to encode it or by which to decode it. No code or language or protocol can just appear out of nowhere, it in itself needs intelligence to design it.[/B][/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------

That is an unsupported group of statements. You can generate complexity and systems with information from simple components...there is even a branch of research on complexity...all free from intelligent design.
--------------------------------

You might actually want to read up on the subjects you are criticizing before stating what is or what is not known about them.

Cheers,
M


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mopsveldmuis, posted 09-18-2002 8:53 AM mopsveldmuis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Quetzal, posted 09-18-2002 9:59 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 40 of 50 (17678)
09-18-2002 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by nos482
09-18-2002 8:46 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mammuthus:

Take a gander at your old sparring partner Wordswordman....he is now telling me that jews are prime candidates for conversion and that Islam is just plain bad.....it would take a couple of centuries to disentagle him from his psychosis[/B][/QUOTE]

He must be a Southern Baptist than. And we all know just how tolerant they are. [/B][/QUOTE]

*****************************

Or a frustrated branch davidian who can't convince women to sleep with him like they did with David Koresh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nos482, posted 09-18-2002 8:46 AM nos482 has not yet responded

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4037 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 41 of 50 (17680)
09-18-2002 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Mammuthus
09-18-2002 9:09 AM


Okay mops[...]: Before this conversation starts chasing itself around in circles, please provide a succinct explanation of how you are using "information". In order to answer your question concerning examples of "information being added to a species", I need to understand explicitly which definition you're using (e.g., Fisher, Shannon, Seiffert, Nauta, Chaitan, Titze, Perry, etc etc), because the answer to your question depends on it. Please be as specific as possible as to the context in which you are using the term. Especially since talking about information at the level of species (rather than individual DNA strand or genome, for instance), there are quite a few definitions that won't apply.

post, not yours.

[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 09-18-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 9:09 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 10:16 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 42 of 50 (17681)
09-18-2002 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Quetzal
09-18-2002 9:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzal:
Okay mops[...]: Before this conversation starts chasing itself around in circles, please provide a succinct explanation of how you are using "information". In order to answer your question concerning examples of "information being added to a species", I need to understand explicitly which definition you're using (e.g., Fisher, Shannon, Seiffert, Nauta, Chaitan, Titze, Perry, etc etc), because the answer to your question depends on it. Please be as specific as possible as to the context in which you are using the term. Especially since talking about information at the level of species (rather than individual DNA strand or genome, for instance), there are quite a few definitions that won't apply.

post, not yours.

[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 09-18-2002]


No problem...my guess is he will ignore us both anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Quetzal, posted 09-18-2002 9:59 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

  
mopsveldmuis
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 50 (17697)
09-18-2002 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by nos482
09-17-2002 9:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
This alone proves that the human brain is a product of evolution.

HOW???

quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
We're self-programming from experiences through our enivironment.

No, we are born with all the necessary "software" to receive input, process it and act in response to that. The programming part was done when God created us.

quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Plus information isn't lost since we still retain many of our primative instincts.

Our "primative" instincts are in many cases a means of survival, so they would obviously not be lost. However, if blonds stopped taking part in human reproduction completely (both male and female), a few generations down the line the blond hair gene can die out completely. We do not see cases of natural blue or purple hair, because it was never a part of human genes and never will be.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
What problems?
Modern dating techniques seems to indicate to a young earth.
Molecular biology is also showing that homology doesn't help evolusionists, because similar structures in different creatures are specified by different genes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Afraid? With your idea we are nothing more than puppets to the will of your god, that nothing we come up with is actually ours to call our own. We didn't earn our intelligence, it was handed to us at the say so of your god. That is a far more scary thought than what is actually the truth.

No, I believe that there is something better than this world, commonly called heaven, where there is no death or sickness or poverty or crime. I don't see what is so scary about that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nos482, posted 09-17-2002 9:29 AM nos482 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 12:43 PM mopsveldmuis has not yet responded

  
mopsveldmuis
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 50 (17698)
09-18-2002 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by nos482
09-17-2002 9:38 AM


Both Christianity and Islam believes in one Almighty Creator, so I don't really see your point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nos482, posted 09-17-2002 9:38 AM nos482 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 12:36 PM mopsveldmuis has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 45 of 50 (17700)
09-18-2002 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by mopsveldmuis
09-18-2002 12:33 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mopsveldmuis:
Both Christianity and Islam believes in one Almighty Creator, so I don't really see your point.

************************

I see you still have not answered any of my questions to you...because you cannot...LOL!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by mopsveldmuis, posted 09-18-2002 12:33 PM mopsveldmuis has not yet responded

  
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