Tal's Iraq War: Blood for Oil, Oil for Food, Food for Thought

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We are going in circles. Agree to Disagree. Next topic.

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We are not going in circles - you are simply unable ti substantiate or defend your position. But then I'm sure that as a Patriot mere facts do not get in thw way of killing people when the state orders you to do so, does it?How about you move on to the topic in which you explain why you are not fulfilling your "army values" of doing the right thing both legally and morally? You are engaged in an illegal occupation and criminal enterprise, and butchering people whose only crime is to have been attacked by you, many of them civilians. A reporter who visited Falluja recently reported that many of the dead they found had been shot down right insided their own door-ways, as if they had answered a knock on the door and been instantly gunned down.This is your "moral" army at work. How do you reconcile this with your "army values"?

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The allegation that AJ broadcasts such images as part of a purposefully anti-Western strategy is total rubbish.

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I hope you don't think I was alleging that.

My position (There are WMD in Iraq) is substantiated from multiple sources of Sarin, Mustard, and 1.7 tons of nuclear material.You guys are ignoring the facts.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

???? I simply cannot agree to disgree on this, as it is pretty objective fact. Your citation disagrees with your argument, is that true or not?On top of that, were the chemical weapons used against troops used as chemical weapons or as simple improvised explosives? Did they kill anyone? Were they capable of killing anyone (much less "masses" of people)? Is there any indication that they were able to be used, or had been used, by Iraqi forces against US troops?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

The insurgents (some foriegn, some former Bathists) are killing the Iraqi civillians.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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The insurgents (some foriegn, some former Bathists) are killing the Iraqi civillians.

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No, American troops are killing civilians, both purposefully and "accidentally", as in when you shell an inhabited city with no concern for the civilians therein. But there are in addition serious allegations of Marine snipers shooting civilians, and other reports such as four unarmed bodies found in a room in Falluja, no weapons present, apparently each shot while asleep from the window.You are killing civilians. The occupation is as bloodthirsty and brutal as any occupation has ever been. And what the freedom-loving people of the world look forward to is the liberation of Iraq from American occupation.

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My position (There are WMD in Iraq) is substantiated from multiple sources of Sarin, Mustard, and 1.7 tons of nuclear material.

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Except you cannot provide the slightest evidence that this is true, can you? the only evidence you have so far cited is the already discredit lies of the Bush administartion.

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You guys are ignoring the facts.

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You don't have any facts for us to ignore. On the other hand, you ARE ignioring the facts of the American occupation and the civilians it is killing.I would point out to you on3e fact you have not acknowledged, Tal: the protesters were right, weren't they? We "menatlly ill" people could see the "evidence" for WMD was paper thin and based on faith rather than fact. We knew the occupation would turn ugly becuase we knew you had no legitimacy in Iraqi eyes. And we knew of the US militaries serial contempt for civilian lives. After all, the US can't be bothered to count civilian deaths so it has no idea of whether it is is doing well or badly in its stated goals of minimising civilian casualties. Amercia has never cared about civilian deaths in any of its wars as far as anyone can tell.WE called it right. You and your bloodthirsty president were wrong.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-12-2005 07:41 AM

Okay this is getting ridiculous. Your own cites dismissed this allegation. Yes, Iraq had WMDs and WMD programs. In 2004, there was a legitimate question of whether all WMDs had been disposed of.From all evidence, including the stuff you just mentioned, the conclusion is that while there could be some hidden stockpile of old material somewhere, it is old and not new material. The materials which have been found (and used) is old and in such decay that it is not plausible to be considered a WMD threat.As far as your nuclear material goes, there is a huge difference between nuclear material, and weapons grade nuclear material. The difference between the two is bridged by technology and equipment that Iraq did not have. There is also a huge difference between weapons grade nuclear material and a nuclear weapon. That is also bridged only by technology and equipment that Iraq did not have.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

I am pretty sure there have been more brutal occupations than this one. And for your information Tal is correct that insurgents are specifically killing Iraqi citizens in a campaign which is more brutal than our own methods and in some cases just as foreign borne.Most Iraqis are more sick of the insurgents than the US occupation. After all the US forces did remove Hussein (which most did like), and the insurgents haven't done anything but kill them.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

I agree that it was not weapons grade, but the stuff still could have been used to make dirty bombs.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

And again, from Bob Gray's own link.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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I am pretty sure there have been more brutal occupations than this one.

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There is no basis for that - becuase many other armies actually obey things like the geneva convention rather than suspending it at will. Many other armies also consider themselves to have a duty of care to the civilian population, while the US specifically does not track its impact on civilians. Furthermore we have indications of soldiers shooting civilians, racist abuse et al which indicates a contemptuous attitude to Iraqi's, treating them as less worthy of life.

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And for your information Tal is correct that insurgents are specifically killing Iraqi citizens in a campaign which is more brutal than our own methods and in some cases just as foreign borne.

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Evidence please? Of coruse there have been killings of collaboraters but as I have repeatedly pointed out that is not unusual for a state under occupation with an active resistance. There is no evidence at all of a sizable foreign contingent apart from the same semantic devices that Bush used to link Iraq and Al Qaeda. And lastly, I cannot see how the odd suicide bombing or punsihment execution can be see as remotely equivalent to the atrocity of Fallujah.

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Most Iraqis are more sick of the insurgents than the US occupation.

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What insurgents? You mean the IRAQI RESISTANCE. The residents of Fallujah blame Ayad Allawi and the US for their plight, by and large.

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After all the US forces did remove Hussein (which most did like), and the insurgents haven't done anything but kill them.

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You mean the RESISTANCE again. And I think you'll find that in all instances of resistance, they can only operate with broad popular consent to conceal them from the forces of occupation. They command much more support than opposition.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-12-2005 07:50 AM

Wrong. There was 2 tons of nuclear material moved out of the country.We have been attacked with artillery shells that contained sarin/mustard.More than 1 stockpile, albeit not tons of the stuff, has been found.These are all true, verified by more than one news source. Once again, the insurgents are killing the civillians. Now you are showing your ignorance.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Funny how we employ the Iraqi civillians and provide them with care and are spending billions to rebuild their schools, hospitals, bridges, and other infrastructure and the Insurgents routinely kill Iraqis. Watch the news one day. They are killing civillians on a daily basis. If you would like a more personal observation, 2 homocide bombers penetrated the IZ. They could have detonated at our hospital or the PX, but instead, one detonated in Vendor Alley (about 150 yards from where I was standing) and the other detonated at the Green Zone Cafe.They killed 18 Iraqis and 2 American Contractors. Yeah, we are just making that Al Zarqawi guy up. Wrong again. And wrong yet again. The insurgents are not popular with the locals because the insurgents kill the locals.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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Wrong. There was 2 tons of nuclear material moved out of the country

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Evidence/link?

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We have been attacked with artillery shells that contained sarin/mustard.

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Evidence/link?