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Author Topic:   Tsunami: Please Explain God's Wrathful Intent
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 153 (176228)
01-12-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
01-12-2005 4:34 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Phatboy:
On second thought, lemme give this thing one last stab. I just put a brand new Dell online, so I'm breakin' it in anyway. Maybe I should try to put something together that will make it more clear what I'm shootin' for and give an example from Biblical verse to substantiate the questions in the OP more clearly.
Give me an hour or two. Pressing office matters distract me from this most important task.
Regards, Abshalom

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 01-12-2005 4:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 153 (176229)
01-12-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by PecosGeorge
01-12-2005 11:13 AM


I tell you what. I'll live in an opaque, ventilated, soundproof box for a few days. During that time I'll periodically pray to God and read the Bible, and then at other times I'll be gluttonous, or fornicate (sigh... if I must for science), or be sinful in other ways. I'll use a random number generator to determine when and what I do.
Your job is to detect my sin, via any method of your devising, short of direct observation of my activities in the box. Your job is to attempt to detect my sin leaving the box and affecting the Earth's crust or anything else. Since the idea is being presented that sin somehow causes real, physical effects on the Earth, we should be able to detect them on the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-12-2005 11:13 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 93 of 153 (176231)
01-12-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by coffee_addict
01-10-2005 5:05 PM


Re: It is better to be thought a fool and keep silent...too late
Most ex-fundy that I know, including myself, went through this phase at one time or other.
i was never what i would term a fundy, though. i never fit in with my fundy churches. but the guilt and fear as a control device was still effective.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 94 of 153 (176236)
01-12-2005 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Lizard Breath
01-11-2005 6:00 PM


Re: My analogy
Lizard Breath
However, if you move outside the box of the purely natural and try to superimpose yourself in the situation from a Biblical perspective, the events become explainable by the concept of sin.
But L.B. there is no evidence of such a perspective being the case.By allowing for the supernatural you can justify any scenario whatsoever because it cannot be falsified.Just like the invisble immaterial dragon in my garage the existence cannot be disproved but an immaterial invisble dragon that leaves no trace is no different than no dragon at all.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 95 of 153 (176246)
01-12-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
01-11-2005 8:05 PM


Re: Update
Buzsaw
Hell buz you'll have to do better than this measly Tsunami scenario.The J.W's Did far better than this Back in 1914. From this website http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm
1914 CE - Probably the single most important and hyped-to-hades date in the history of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1914 became the target for Charles T. Russell’s Armageddon almost immediately after the 1881 date went up in smoke...or rather, didn’t. Dropping pyramidology like a big, chiseled rock, Charlie fell back on the old End-Timer’s standby; He picked out odd quotes from the Book of Daniel, assigned them random numerical values, totaled them up and spat them back out again as the definitive date for the Big Good-bye. It was during this period that the JW’s really got themselves organized and their shiny, new Doomsdate helped them to win over oodles of followers.
Probably the single best advertisement the sect ever got was the outbreak of World War I. Truly, nothing cheers the heart of an apocalypse fan more than hearing that millions of their fellow human beings are about to be slaughtered like pigs in an abattoir, and the JWs were simply twirling in ecstasy at the news. Unfortunately, 1914 insisted on turning over into 1915, then 1916, etc. Still, the war was coming along swimmingly. The death rate was just (if you’ll excuse the expression) rapturously high, and the atrocities, what with the trenches and the mustard gas and the attacks on civilians and all, were very nearly Biblical. Fortified by all this devastation, Charlie Russell gave one last try for a definitive cosmic kaboom.
1918 CE - It was a date poor Charlie Russell never did get to see. Despite his bolted-to-the-baseboard belief that he would never, ever die,...die he most certainly did on October 31, (Halloween! Another holiday the JWs don’t celebrate) 1916. Before he went the way of all things, though, Charlie reset his apocalypse clock for 1918 and his followers dutifully fell in behind the re-drawn line. Hard as Charlie’s supposedly impossible death hit them, the reality of the times gave the flock reason to hold out hope.
Besides the protracted nightmare of the war, 1917 also brought the Spanish Flu, a hideous disease that seemed to have come out of nowhere and perversely struck down those who were the most strong and vital. As the pandemic tore its fatal swath across the globe, killing some 30,000,000 people, the JWs took heart. It seemed they had good reason. I mean,...did all that calamity look like the signature blood-drenched, poxied hand of God, or what? Yet, before 1917 ran out, the flu ran its course and disappeared, and the only thing that came to an end in 1918 was the war. As the rest of the world celebrated the new peace, these became dark days indeed for the Doomsday deprived Witnesses...
It is always doom time for the world.Surprisingly though the longer people continue to preach such silliness the greater the chances of them finally getting it right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2005 8:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 153 (176255)
01-12-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
01-12-2005 4:34 AM


One More Redirection Back on Topic
In the Bible, the prophet Nahum predicted the destruction of Nineveh (see Nahum 1, 2, and 3).
In Nahum 1, verses 2 through 6, the prophet describes the Hebrew god as a powerful god of wind and storm. The clouds are the dust of his feet, says Nahum.
Nahum describes this stormy Hebrew wind god as one who takes VENGEANCE on his foes and maintains his WRATH against his enemies.
Nineveh, the great capital of the Assyrian Empire, apparently housed a particularly villainous foe targeted for destruction by the Hebrew god’s VENGEANCE and WRATH. Nahum predicted the following misfortunes would destroy the Assyrian capital as a result to the Hebrew god’s WRATH and VENGEANCE:
1. An "overwhelming flood will make an utter end of the place" (Nah. 1:8)
2. Whatever plot (the Assyrians) have against the LORD, He will bring to and end; and trouble will not come a second time (from Nineveh).
3. Nineveh will be destroyed and tangled in thorns while the inhabitants are "drunk with their wine" and they will be consumed (by fire) like dry stubble. (Nah. 1:10)
The Hebrew god apparently utterly detests Nineveh and intends to wipe the city from the face of the earth. He commands that Nineveh will have no descendants to bear your name. I will destroy the carved images and cast idols that are in the temples of your gods. I will prepare your grave, for you are vile. (Nah. 1:14)
Nahum says the city would never recover, for their "injury has no healing" (Nah. 3:19)
In 612 B.C. Nabopolassar led a united Babylonian, Medean, and Scythian army against Assyrian citadels. He laid siege to Nineveh, but the walls of the city were too strong for battering rams, so he decided to starve the Assyrians out.
After a three month siege, rain fell so heavily that the Tigris River inundated part of the city and overturned one of its walls for a distance of "twenty stades." The invaders laid utter waste to all parts of Nineveh that had not been destroyed by the flood.
Nineveh was a substantial city around which the walls were 40 to 50 feet high and extended 4 kilometers along the Tigris River and 13 kilometers around the inner city. The city wall had 15 main gates, 5 of which have been excavated. There were parks, a botanical garden, a zoo, and a water-system including the oldest aqueduct in history at Jerwan, across the Gomel River.
Nineveh was flooded, pillaged, burned, and then razed to the ground so completely that in one blow Assyria disappeared from history. Two hundred years later Xenophon's army marched across dirt mounds that once had been Nineveh and never suspected that they stood atop a former metropolis that had ruled half the world. No stones remained visible of all the temples with which Assyria's pious leaders had sought to beautify their greatest capital. http://www.crystalinks.com/nineveh.html
NOW, ONE MORE TIME
A) Is the Hebrew god a wrathful and vengeful god who deliberately causes natural and manmade disasters to befall humankind utterly destroying great swaths of inhabited landscapes as claimed in the Bible regarding Nineveh and other places?
B) Does the Hebrew god, and we must assume him to also be the god of Christians and Muslims, inflict punishment for sin and corruption via disease, natural phenomena, and other inflictions whether natural or manmade that disproportionately kill women, children, the weak, the elderly, and the infirmed rather than inflicting a punishment that specifically targets evil doers as the Bible records He did in Nineveh (Sodom, Egypt, etc.)?
C) Is the recent tsunami in the Indian Ocean another example of God’s Wrath and Vengeance; and if so, are the after-effects of the tsunami, such as cholera, typhoid, dehydration, starvation, and other dreadful afflictions also His intended punishment of evil doers as the after-effects of Biblical examples of the Hebrew god's wrath and vengeance were obviously visited upon all inhabitants of targetted places. (Keep in mind that in Nineveh, Sodom, and Noah's Flood, that there certainly were fetuses, newborn infants, and other innocents that died as a result of apparently indescriminate wrath and vengeance.)
D) If yes to any or all of the above, then are the humanitarian relief efforts effectively a work against God’s Intent, and therefore sin?
Please, no discussion of wake-up calls, plate tectonics, the Devil (whom is never mentioned as the executor of vengeful wrath to punish sin), Jesus’ instructions to extend mercy and assistance, or other apologies. We are discussing the Hebrew god’s intended wrath and vengeance as witnessed by His assigned prophets such as Nahun, Moses, Jonah, etc. I’m not looking for apologetic cop-outs, just direct answers to these four questions.
Regards, Abshalom
This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-12-2005 12:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 01-12-2005 4:34 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-13-2005 5:38 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 153 (176318)
01-12-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by crashfrog
01-12-2005 11:19 AM


Randy the Randomator
crashfrog writes:
I'll use a random number generator to determine when and what I do.
Randomly praying to God negates any possibility of a willful relationship. This is the essence of original sin. Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. In other words, ignore what was told to you---that you will surely die. Step into the actual decision making realm and determine the probability of
a) Living through reproduction
b) Knowledge without obedience---no need of God.
c) Finally, believing the realization that humanity is their own authority.
The lie is complete---it makes "perfect" sense, and it even feels good.
Now, lets examine a basic endtimes prophecy:
NIV writes:
Matt 24:4-14= Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
He is talking specifically to his disciples, but many Christians see this passage as an endtimes prophecy
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Including many so called T.V. Evangelists who exploit the Bible for gain. Not just Jim Jones and David Koresh.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Why always wars? Humans are intrinsically selfish. They want to keep what they have. Everyone knows that the U.S. not only wants to insure that nobody knocks over their multibillion dollar towers but that we need cooperation among the nations for our own interests. It simply won't do to have the Muslim world control all of the oil so as to dictate any terms to our multinationals!
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
A Nation is a clan. Serbians vs Croatians, as an example. A Kingdom is a national country. Great Britain vs Argentina, for example.
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Here, Jesus is not saying anything about earthquakes and famines being anything caused by God. He is only stating that these events will add to the situation. It is all about cooperation among nations or competition.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Look at the world today. What if by random, natural chance, we had 5 major earthquakes in a year? One of them wiped out a large portion of the economy of California. How would this country pay for helping any others? If we did not help, how much more of a rise in militant Islamic factions would occur? What type of a future scenario would be set for human relations on Earth?
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
What if the U.N. had a global solution that involved abolishment of all religions to foster human cooperation? The ones who resisted this proposal would be left out of the economic aid.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
of course, many would use human wisdom and common sense and abandon their belief in God.
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
You know these guys will show up.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Because the once mighty U.S. loses much of their economic security blanket, darn well many will be angry! Why share with billions when we have lost so much!
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To those who hold fast to their faith of love and of trusting God in the midst of poverty...
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
God would never cause earthquakes.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-12-2005 16:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 153 (176321)
01-12-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Abshalom
01-07-2005 10:53 AM


My Take
Our world is imperfect. God made this world a perfect world, but with the sin of Adam and Eve, the world became imperfect. Ever since then, death, tragedy, and destruction have always existed in this world, not because of God, but because of the sin of man. Also, it should be noted that God's kingdom is not of this world. It is God's hope not to establish a utopia on this world, but in the world to come (namely heaven). Therefore, the most important thing is not what happens in this world, but whether or not the people of this world go to heaven.
This message has been edited by commike37, 01-12-2005 17:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2005 10:53 AM Abshalom has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 153 (176349)
01-12-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by agnostic666
01-12-2005 11:04 AM


Re: Allah's Signiture
agnostic666 wrote:
Gilgamesh,
It's a strinking coincidence that the picture was taken just as Allah's wrote his name.
I hope this is a joke - made me laugh
Very much a joke, my non-theist friend. Christians don't have a monopoloy on silly claims.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 100 of 153 (176369)
01-12-2005 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by sidelined
01-12-2005 12:14 PM


Re: Update
I don't have any idea about the accuracy of the information from the link about the Jehova's Witnesses but the bit about Spanish Flu is wrong. Although it may have first appeared in 1917 it ran all the way through 1918 and into 1919.
You're right about all the silliness though.

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 153 (176404)
01-12-2005 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by sidelined
01-12-2005 12:14 PM


Re: Update
Hell buz you'll have to do better than this measly Tsunami scenario.The J.W's Did far better than this Back in 1914. From this website http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm
JWs mess up big time on a lota stuff. In prophecy, they fail to factor in Israel's reoccupation by Jews as imperical significance in determining the signs of the times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2005 12:14 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2005 11:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 153 (176410)
01-12-2005 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
01-12-2005 5:37 PM


Re: Randy the Randomator
God would never cause earthquakes.
Better read up, preacherman.
Revelation 16:17-20, prophesying the 7th vial of God's wrath:
"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.... and the cities of the nations fell And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."
Revelation 16:17-20
There was an earthquake at the death of Jesus also, I believe. Was that coincidental? I believe there's a few other texts implicating God in earthquake, as well.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-12-2005 5:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 103 of 153 (176413)
01-12-2005 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Buzsaw
01-12-2005 11:10 PM


Re: Update
buzsaw
So what do you suppose would be the next phase in the prophesy buz? You state "It is a wakeup call to the world as a whole that the end time events are beginning to come to pass."
So tell us what is next buz. Not something vague but definite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2005 11:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 104 of 153 (176430)
01-13-2005 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by commike37
01-12-2005 5:49 PM


God made this world a perfect world, but with the sin of Adam and Eve, the world became imperfect.
Through what physical mechanism does human sin affect the makeup of the Earth?
Did you read my post about my box experiment? Surely if human sin makes the world imperfect, we should be able to detect this corrupting force as it emanates from particularly sinful places - gay bathhouses, perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 153 (176431)
01-13-2005 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by sidelined
01-12-2005 11:47 PM


Re: Update
So what do you suppose would be the next phase in the prophesy buz? You state "It is a wakeup call to the world as a whole that the end time events are beginning to come to pass."
So tell us what is next buz. Not something vague but definite.
All I see for the short haul is vague trends. I see a continued escalation of disasters world wide, here and there and everywhere with crazy weather phenomena on the increase bigtime, causing widespread drout, polution of water and air, global warming and yes, many more earthquakes and volcanoes, including some biggies.
There is this big volcanic threat in the Yellowstone lake that could affect the US bigtime.
On the long haul, to get more specific, some time in the not too distant future, Vatican City will be nuked, Chemical missiles will likely polute many of the streams and lakes, a "mountain" or maybe commet will likely slide/hit into the sea somewhere, wiping out a third of the ships in that particular ocean or sea.
There's going to simultaneously be some significant political stuff going on to change the picture with alliances between Russia and Sunni Muslim nations in particular to manipulate oil and consolidate power. Some day they'll do in Vatican City and finally, Armageddon, when they meet their "Waterloo" trying to do in Israel and specifically Jerusalem.
This all leading up to the BIG, BIG, BIG EVENT, 2ND ADVENT OF JESUS, LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS!!

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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