Questions for ID believers

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Originally posted by mopsveldmuis:
Hold on there a bit, what computers can do today doesn't even start to compare to what our brain can do.

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A person's brain has to:
Receive, process and store thousands of light, sound, smell and touch signals coming from all over the body in realtime.
Do complicated calculations of the external environment and body movement and it's effect, for instance to catch a ball.
Learn to understand a complicated language system made up of visual and audio inputs without any help from the outside.
Take data from a vast storage capacity, process it and make decisions based on a combination of that and what is percieved by your senses.
Store the complete account of what you sensed, thought and felt during your whole life.
Feel and show and try to control emotions based on memory and present experience.
And to top it all off, all of this can happen at the same time and usually at least a number of them does.

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We can't even make a computer conscious of it's own existence, so don't act like we have found a way of bettering the awesome design we see in the way God has created us.

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*************************************************************++Yup..the human brain can do all those amazing things and yet there are still creationists.....some brains have a long way to go

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Originally posted by mopsveldmuis:
God, by definition is uncreated and infinite in power and intelligence. Since He has created us and everything we see around us, it makes no sense to try and define Him in terms of matter or energy.

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I guess you are now going to provide evidence and a testable hypothesis for this?...."it makes no sense to try and define Him in terms of matter or energy"..it also makes no sense to believe in him.

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A computer program requires a programmer to exist, but you won't find the programmer anywhere in the program, just like you won't find an engineer in the electronic device he designed or a cook in the food that he prepared. In the same way it is totally illogical to look for the Creator in His creation.

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Hmmm except when I boot up my computer and get the big Microsoft logo....maybe Bill Gates is god.

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All information we see in this world ultimately comes from Him, because there is no other possible way for it to have come into existence. Not from mutations or from natural selection, because in both cases information is lost and not gained.

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Just because you can't understand anything about the natural world does not mean the rest of us are as limited. Please provide all the citations or data that natural selection and mutations lead to information loss.

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Where then could the information code we find in DNA have come form? Only one place and that is the Almighty God who has created each and every one of us and when we are done with our journey here on earth, we will see Him and then it will be too late to start to believe.

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Or it came from Puff the Magic Dragon or the Tooth Fairy's sister...you can't disprove that either

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Originally posted by mopsveldmuis:

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Originally posted by monkenstick:
he doesn't rewrite code from scratch, like john carmack. He reuses code in all of his creations

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Molecular biology shows us today that similar structures in different creatures are specified by different genes. Before you embarrass yourself again, take a look at this site:
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research

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Originally posted by monkenstick:
Lots of bugs too.

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What bugs are you talking about? What we see as bugs today, might have been necessary a thousand years ago.

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******************************************************If you are going to try to support your claims with anything from the ICR you might as well try to prove Elvis is alive using a Dunkin Donuts advertisement...LOL!!! ICR..give me a break...LOL!!!

You are terribly confused if you think computers are evolving themselves. Without human design and manufacture them, you wouldn't even be able to find a transistor on this planet. It's not evolution, but technological advance.
********************************************************that is one reason they are a bad analogy...also that they are not self replicating systems.This is still humans designing the robots. As the AI level increases, they are continuously adding information to the previous designs. Mutations and natural selection on the other hand are both cases where information is lost. If intelligence had to start simple, like you just said, where did the information input come from?
************************************************Please provide evidence in the form of peer review (not ICR crap) publications that support that all mutations and selection lead to information loss. The syncytin gene is an endogenous retrovirus gene that has taken over a critical function in placental development in humans. This is a mutation that has lead to information gain. Exon shuffling and gene duplications (i.e. genes for color vision) also can lead to information gain. You don't seem to know very much about the subject you are bashing.Evidence or theory? Most attempts to prove evolution just brought into the light more problems for anybody that wanted to believe in it. And because people are afraid to admit the reality that we have to give account to God when we leave this earth, they will keep on believing the myth of evolution blindly.[/B][/QUOTE]*************************************************************You also don't seem to know anything about science if you think one "proves" a theory. Please provide peer reviewed citations or direct experimental evidence that refutes the principles of the theory of evolution. Also, state exactly what the theory of evolution purports.Then you can move on to providing a testable hypothesis and experimental evidence for "And because people are afraid to admit the reality that we have to give account to God when we leave this earth"It is you who clings to a myth blindly. At least most of us know the myth you cling to...however, you obviouly know nothing about evolution.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Now who is speaking of fairy tales. Christianity is stagnating. The fastest growing religion now is Islam.[/B][/QUOTE]That, my friends, is a hint how to tell the difference between religions and fairy tales! LOL[/B][/QUOTE]Give or take another few centuries and Islam will be in the same boat. [/B][/QUOTE]Take a gander at your old sparring partner Wordswordman....he is now telling me that jews are prime candidates for conversion and that Islam is just plain bad.....it would take a couple of centuries to disentagle him from his psychosis

Your own words speak against what you are trying to say:
"We can make computers evolve"
"we make them work"
"we can make things"
"we set them going"
I don't see the part where there is no intelligent interference from the outside.
*******************************Since you ignored my posts I will keep nagging you....I said before that computers are a false analogy as an evolutionary system. They do not reproduce hence no evolution.
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Originally posted by Rationalist:
The evolutionary system the builders set up to immitate nature (genes plus mutations plus selection) are adding new information to the previous design. The designers job is simply to make sure it immitates natures evolution as closely as possible.

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That's exactly my point! In evolution simulations they use mutations to add information, but in real life that doesn't happen except for some very rare cases.
------------------------------------------------Are you going to provide citations or data for this or are you going to keep making false assertions based on ignorance?

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Evolutionary systems always cause information to increase, especially specified information. Why is it that creationists don't know this? It's not very difficult to understand.

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Information doesn't increase when an animal species where some have long hair and some short remain in a cold environment for a long time and those with short hair die out. The short hair gene dies in the process, while the species are specialised for a cold environment.
--------------------------------------------------LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you get your biology lessons from the back of a box of cereal? Hair morphology is a quantitative trait first off...but nevertheless, the gene is there but the short hair allele would be selected for and likely fixed in the population. In humans sometimes older versions of an allele reappear by mutation causing atavisms like the two kids in the circus in Mexico who had a mutation leading them to be completely covered with hair like chimps.

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It is generated in response to the environment via natural selection.. just as with natural biological evolution.

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Where do we see actual examples of information being added to a species today? There is no scientific evidence for this crucial detail that evolutoinists accept without thinking twice.
_____________________________________________If you actually learned to read rather than make assertions it might help your case.....LINEs, SINEs, exon shuffling, HERVs all show increases of information..even today i.e. syncytin.
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Information does not obey any sort of conservation law. It is spontaneously created through the permutations of physical states, and can be destroyed by changing those physical states.

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Information isn't created spontaneously. Data maybe, but not information. To get information, you need to know first of all which data to take and how to interpret it. For instance if I take a French book, but I can only understand English, the book won't mean anything to me.To successfully transmit or receive information, you have to know the correct code/language/protocol eihter in which to encode it or by which to decode it. No code or language or protocol can just appear out of nowhere, it in itself needs intelligence to design it.[/B][/QUOTE]---------------------------------------That is an unsupported group of statements. You can generate complexity and systems with information from simple components...there is even a branch of research on complexity...all free from intelligent design.
--------------------------------You might actually want to read up on the subjects you are criticizing before stating what is or what is not known about them.Cheers,
M

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mammuthus:Take a gander at your old sparring partner Wordswordman....he is now telling me that jews are prime candidates for conversion and that Islam is just plain bad.....it would take a couple of centuries to disentagle him from his psychosis[/B][/QUOTE]He must be a Southern Baptist than. And we all know just how tolerant they are. [/B][/QUOTE]*****************************Or a frustrated branch davidian who can't convince women to sleep with him like they did with David Koresh

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Okay mops[...]: Before this conversation starts chasing itself around in circles, please provide a succinct explanation of how you are using "information". In order to answer your question concerning examples of "information being added to a species", I need to understand explicitly which definition you're using (e.g., Fisher, Shannon, Seiffert, Nauta, Chaitan, Titze, Perry, etc etc), because the answer to your question depends on it. Please be as specific as possible as to the context in which you are using the term. Especially since talking about information at the level of species (rather than individual DNA strand or genome, for instance), there are quite a few definitions that won't apply.

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post, not yours.

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[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 09-18-2002]

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No problem...my guess is he will ignore us both anyway.

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Originally posted by mopsveldmuis:
Both Christianity and Islam believes in one Almighty Creator, so I don't really see your point.

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************************I see you still have not answered any of my questions to you...because you cannot...LOL!!!

No, we are born with all the necessary "software" to receive input, process it and act in response to that. The programming part was done when God created us.
-----------------------------------And now you are going to provide evidence for the last sentence or admit that you cannot and are lying

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Originally posted by nos482:
Plus information isn't lost since we still retain many of our primative instincts.

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Our "primative" instincts are in many cases a means of survival, so they would obviously not be lost. However, if blonds stopped taking part in human reproduction completely (both male and female), a few generations down the line the blond hair gene can die out completely. We do not see cases of natural blue or purple hair, because it was never a part of human genes and never will be.
--------------------------------------------------I addressed this issue in a reply to you which you duly ignored because you A)cannot understand simple genetics B) ignore data that demonstrates your fairy tale is false

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Originally posted by nos482:
What problems?
Modern dating techniques seems to indicate to a young earth.
Molecular biology is also showing that homology doesn't help evolusionists, because similar structures in different creatures are specified by different genes.
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You going to provide evidence for this patently false statement?

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Afraid? With your idea we are nothing more than puppets to the will of your god, that nothing we come up with is actually ours to call our own. We didn't earn our intelligence, it was handed to us at the say so of your god. That is a far more scary thought than what is actually the truth.

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No, I believe that there is something better than this world, commonly called heaven, where there is no death or sickness or poverty or crime. I don't see what is so scary about that.[/B]

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______________________________________Fine if you believe it..there is no evidence for it but don't misrepresent evolutionary theory to comfort yourself. Learn something about it first. Otherwise you are just embarrassing yourself.

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Store the complete account of what you sensed, thought and felt during your whole life. The human mind does not do this.

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How come people under hypnosis can remember just about anything from their past.
-----------------------------------------------LOL!!!! People under hypnosis can generate completely false memories if directed by someone.

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Computers are great at doing things simultaneously.

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No, because of serial processing they slow down as tasks become more.
****************************************Ok, let's see you calculate the square root of 134545454545 while reciting the first act of Othello and building a ship in a bottle at the same time and see if YOU don't slow down a bit.

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We can't even make a computer conscious of it's own existence..
This is practically the easiest thing to do with a computer, make its own state a part of its perceptual space. Again, as with emotions, it's not the self perception that is difficult, but the REST of the large scale awareness and cognitive functions that we consider human.

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Like you said, the computer can't be truly aware of itself or the world around it or the people that it is interacting with in the same sense as humans do. It can't hope or dream or enjoy life.
****************************************************How do you know anyone else does? How do you know you do? What is intelligence? What is self awareness?God created us to live and interact with Him, our environment and with each other, not just to process information. Would you really prefer life without any emotions or hopes or dreams or love just so you can remember everything even though it doesn't mean anything to you? Without the lifegiving spirit that God has put inside of us that enables us to love & hate and to be happy or sad and to hope for a better tomorrow, we would have been nothing.
*********************************************God did not create us and does not exist and yet I do not live a life without emotions, hopes, dreams, or love.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++God gave us enough intelligence to realise who we are and if we are really honest with ourselves, that we need Him.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++If you are really "honest" you would admit you have no proof of this.And He gave us emotions so that we can experience His love for us and love Him back aswell.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++To bad there is no evidence for him or any experience of his love.