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| Author | Topic: If we are all descended from Noah ... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days)  Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482: Hardly. Arguing with you is like hitting one's head against a dense wall. You wouldn't accept anything even if the proof were undeniable and right in front of you. Like I had said, you are a TRUE believer and nothing will stand in the way of that. You can't allow anything to stand in the way of your beliefs. See my thread "Why People want to believe there is a god" and this fits you to a tee. Your religious beliefs are all you have. You are too deluded to be truly rational. Even the others on here who don't agree with me most of the time see just how irrational you are. I won't be a performer in your little Cirque Du Lusion. WS: Get ready. I'm planning on following you to the other topics where I see you have been quite busy. I think it's time to clip your wings here and there. How will you ignore me? If you don't defend your claims, what value are they? All it will take is a little challenge here and there to expose the whole rotten lot of false accusations. Don't you realize that if you don't perform, you can be performed like a puppet on strings? I'll make the time for that somehow.  I have my sights on other much more interesting forums here that are much more productive, but for now you have my attention for some reason(s).  We'll see who appears irrational.  [This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002][/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE] *************************** you are a nutter with too much free time...
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
WS: That might be true among less than 2% of the population. Apart from your unbelief there is no other authority you can appeal to that has weight among practically every other human on earth.
*********************************************************+ Sure there is...it is called secular law. WS: And what is the core basis of secular law? What standard caused lawmakers to criminalize practically everything the Law of Moses condemned? Do you suppose secular law just sprang up without influence of religion? Somebody just thought up a bunch of stuff that ought to be illegal? Why would anything be illegal if there is no accountability to God? What would it matter? Whose idea was law?I haven't looked up the origin of German law, but I do know where American law came from. We have a lot of laws now that have nothing directly to do with biblical morality, but practically all of them are rooted in the 'right/wrong' foundation of religious law. Our heritage is directly linked to the Judeo-Christian Law Giver, God, specifically the Holy Scriptures of the Bible. I figure yours are too, like it or not. *********************************************************** ___________________________________________________ Your own words since you don't listen to anyone elses: "We have a lot of laws now that have nothing directly to do with biblical morality, but practically all of them are rooted in the 'right/wrong' foundation of religious law." And many of those laws are common to all cultures as well...in some cases they are observed among animals....big deal.________________________________________________________ You are without authority except that loosely held among your few peers.**************************************************++ Considering you were bashing Catholics you are without authority outside your little fundie sect. WS: I am not bashing Catholics. I oppose the official doctrines that were added, especially since the 4th century A.D.. Not only "fundies" oppose them. Evangelicals, Protestants, and more modern moves of God all agree the RCC is not mainstream, not conforming to the original gospel of Christ._________________________________________________________ Considering catholics make up the largest percentage of christians, they are the mainstream....so either they are wrong or all of you are wrong...----------------------------------------------------- That is by mutual consent, not by anything authoritative. Opinions of scientists able only to comment on the seen can't be greater than those of people able to "see" the unseen by faith as well as observe the seen.******************************************** Ok..by your logic then you cannot have a greater authority than a crackhead who is inspired by a talking pizza he sees while tripping. WS: Illogical thought there. In the first place an abuser of drugs has no credibility anywhere with anyone except maybe other drug abusers. His testimony is valueless in all societies. Secondly, if the only time the pizza can be preceived as talking is while tripping, again, that testimony is discredited. Nobody will ask for the evidence. He will be taken for treatments or locked up. Your analogy is very poor, demonstrating a blindness towards the things of God. In the Bible are many events where God intervened on Israel's behalf, witnessed by their enemies, who never denied those evidences. At the resurrection of Jesus some 500 dead people left their graves and walked among the living in Jerusalem. The Jews would loved to have disputed that, but there is no credible dispute anywhere on record. They are stuck with many such evidences. Whether you believe or disbelieve is pointless. Millions believed and do believe, and the record is undisputed EXCEPT by simple denials with no basis, much along the lines of denials of the Nazi-led Jewish Holocaust, in spite of the mountains of evidence. The denials like that only label people as fools.--------------------------------------------------- You are in denial and a fool then. You cannot even prove half the people lived or when for your eye witness account. Thousands of people saw JFK get shot and still there is no one account of what transpired even though the technology was far more advanced. And my analogy to a drug user is appropriate. You only see your god when you want to, I don't see him/her/it so your arguement has no validity. Maybe another christian in the same room does not see either....it is no different than the talking pizza of the crackhead. You see what you want to see to support your belief which is like a drug induced psychosis.--------------------------------------- They have the greater, more real perspective.***************************************************** Only compared to those who have had most of their brain removed. WS: I read a few years back about a revived drowning victim whose damaged brain was mostly removed, leaving only about 8% I think, but suffered no apparent loss. Evidently humans use very little of their brains. So what percentage are you talking about? It seems quite smart to me that if a person can observe and reason naturally as well as take on God's perspective, he is more supernatural and more complete than a person limited to the natural.That is the case here. I operate supernaturally as well as naturally, much like God does, as I am a child of God, a co-heir with His Son. You, however, are operating inefficiently, lacking the supernatural altogether, as well as much of the natural. ------------------------------------------------- That is your unsupported opinion which I will duly ignore. -----------------------------------------------------Almost all people hold some theistic belief, regarding an authority higher than themselves. ************************************************* And each one of them thinks they are right and all the others wrong. WS: I doubt it. Most theists are fairly ignorant of doctrine. They are marginal believers, whatever their religion. I find Muslims online that can't tell you what the Quran says. Same goes for Christians not knowing the Bible, and Hindus ignorant of most of the thousands of Hindu gods and goddesses.---------------------------------------------------------------- Your doubts are irrelevant. Facts are what are needed here. That the doctrine of different faiths are in some cases directly opposed to each other i.e. Mormons means that christians do not agree with each other and that each thinks they are right and all the others wrong.----------------------------------------------- Among the clear majority of Christians, according to virtually every poll, evolution theory is invalid, and many believe all the writings of evolutionists are demon-inspired.******************************************************** You might want to provide the exact citation for this evidence...preferably in a peer reviewed journal. WS: Why do atheists always require evidence only from peer-reviewed journals? I've found that most of them require paid subscriptions, and most are too technical to enjoy. Each professional has his own jopurnal that he can enjoy. They are not for the average person, and are not normally required for debates. What debate anywhere requires debaters to cite peer-reviewed journals?------------------------------------------------------- LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Oh why would we want evidence...it is so much better just to accept what other people say LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I am sorry that professional journals are not dumbed down enough for you to understand. It is typical zealot power grabbing...keep people dumb, keep research from continuing, shut down or kill opposition, bilk the susceptible of their money, repeat as needed. -------------------------------------------------- The Zogby and Gallop polls have recently updated the figures. "100 Scientists, National Poll Challenge Darwinism" from http://www.reviewevolution.com/...sRelease_100Scientists.php "Polls Show Change From Evolution to Creation"Revolution Against Evolution – A Revolution of the Love of God "Gallup Poll Analyses - Substantial Numbers of Americans Continue to Doubt Evolution as Explanation for Origin of HumansPOLL ANALYSES March 5, 2001 Substantial Numbers of Americans Continue to Doubt Evolution as Explanation for Origin of Humans Some Americans appear uncertain as to meaning of terms, however by Deborah Jordan BrooksGALLUP NEWS SERVICE. PRINCETON, NJ - Although most scientists subscribe to the theory of evolution..." (subscription required) Page Not Found ***March 5, 2001, shows that a majority of Americans believe in creationism over evolution, and only one third of the American public say, "Darwin's theory of evolution is well supported by evidence." Some believed that God participated in human evolution over a long period, but only 12% believed that "God had no part in the process." Gallup notes "The public has not notably changed its opinion on this question since Gallup started asking it in 1982."*** It appears that according to your opinion, two thirds of Americans are "fundies"? Cool.****************************+ I see you only included American christian polls. That is funny as it is consistent with the extremely poor education levels of average Americans compared to other developed countries. So these polls do not surprise me....if you broke it down by education level the numbers would be radically different with those with a higher education accepting evolution and those with little or none accepting whatever somebody tells them to accept....it would also be different if you polled christians in Italy for example.--------------------------------------- Although they might not all be so inspired, many people are convinced they are.**********************************************+ Many people think they have been abducted by UFOs WS: Maybe "many", but that group is a tiny minority. A more significant number is that a third of Americans believe aliens have visited earth at some time. alien abduction - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com BTW, that's a great site for atheists to get lost in.---------------------------------------------------------------- This hardly refutes my point. That lots of people believe something does not make it true. Evidence supports something or it does not...or there is no evidence. Only some christians are fundamentalists which is why it is easy to dismiss them as a radical fringe.------------------------------------- Whether you believe the Bible is the Word of God matters not. That doesn't take away from that authority.********************************************* Whether you believe or not matters not...you have no authority to distribute WS: Not so. The Bible says I have authority from Christ, and I do. I lay hands on the sick in the name of my Lord God Jesus and they recover and are delivered of problems medical science can't help them with. I speak with the authority of the Lord Jesus, and can preach the Word unto salvation of men. That is great authority, no less than intended for all believers.------------------------------------------------ Do you believe you are god? Do you believe you have direct orders from it? Do you hear voices? This sounds like megalomania. But since I don't believe in god or that jesus ever existed your paragraph is meaningless superstition.-------------------------------------- All other religions that sprang up among the separate descendants of Adam were departures from the original religion given by God, to this day. That original religion was consummated by Christ on the cross, he being the final blood sacrifice, opening the way to the completed path to the Father through him alone. There are no other ways to God, but by Jesus Christ.------------------------------------------------ Prove which one is correct then. ******************************************** The Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans etc would disagree and you have no evidence to support your claims or that they are wrong. WS: Their own idol gods betray them. Look at the depravity of people who adhere to such meaningless things. Look at their standard of living, their concept of decency, the lack of liberty and freedom, subjugated by tyrants and despots, with no Bill of Rights, no real justice, nothing anyone chooses to go live under. They seek to live in America, long to escape their lands for the island of freedom, though some of their own seek its destruction. Wiccan is witchcraft, hardly in the class of religion comparable to Christianity or world religions, the choice of Al Gore.---------------------------------------------------- Al Gore is a religion? All of those wonderful things you mentioned about America have to do with the plurality of cultures and relgions that are supported by SECULAR law which separates church and state. America is not free because of christianity. There are plenty of christian countries with horrible records. The US was a piss head colony under puritanical law. Those freedoms that exist in America and in other developed countries were only gained by breaking the populations free of the church. If fundies were in charge and made America a theocracy it would become just like Afghanistan under the Taliban.------------------------------------------- Chimpanzees build and maintain complex societies. Are they dependent upon the concept of sin? WS:1. God made them that way. 2. Their society is not as complex as that of humans. 3. They were never given the law of God, so are not accountable for sin, having no spirit in the image and likeness of God. 4. They don't praise and worship God, though they do share the burden of a damaged creation on account of man's sin. ***************************** 1. provide evidence 2. List 10 observations made about chimp society 3. provide evidence 4. provide evidence WS: What? You think you have evidence they came through evolution? What evidence? You have only explanation, a theory, with no tangible evidence whatsoever that can't be interpreted to support creation. As for the chimps, even Leaky doesn't observe they are religious or have received anything of instruction from God.Evidence? One practices what one believes. A lifetime of close observation of them has yielded no evidence at all. ------------------------------ Define the theory of evolution and the molecular basis for it. Please provide the citations that show that nobody has observed complex chimp behavior (hint: Jane Goodall). That no evidence at all is mountains of evidence. Your ignorance on the subject of evolution is not surprising. It is easier to oppose blindly than to actually get off your lazy ass and learn.----------------------------------- But lifetimes of observing people practicing Christianity has netted many testimonies of such evidence as required for many more to believe in God. Such evidences are not material enough to lay on the table for all to see. They are experiences, many witnessed. In our courts the testimony of an eye-witness is acceptable evidence for a conviction if there is any other evidence to support that.------------------------------------------ Which is why a lot of innocent people go to jail. Eye witness testimony is the most unreliable of evidences. Again, you arguement is that people who already believe see things that help them believe.--------------------------------------------------- Christianity has millions of eye-witnesses of acts of God, and resultant blessings to support their claims. It is acceptable among reasonable people. Let the irreverant be blind.---------------------------------------------- Every religion has millions of "eye-witness" accounts of acts of their god/gods. Irrelevant. Every field of science has millions of reproducible data points that people of all backgrounds have observed.-------------------------------------------- WS: Many respected statisticians, both secular and Bible-believing have analyzed the facts around the writings on the Bible, presenting powerful mathematical probabilities that eliminate coincidences and fraudulent last days creation ofthe books of the Bible. Many books arein print discussing the mathematical purity of Holy Scriptues and their inter-relationships.************************************* LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!List them and provide references...LOL!!!! WS: Start with these. If you are really interested I will provide lots of links of probability analyses of the Bible. Most skeptics just dismiss those anyway, so why ask for them? Will you read them if I go look them up? Theomatics http://www.theomatics.com/theomatics/home.html WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION 2021, 10 Most of the technical ones are in Christian creationist websites. Interested? Theomatics is just one such field of study.********************************************** Vegomatic is a better one WS: You seem to lack a lot of general knowledge. Theomatics is a mathematical application to Scriptures. A Vegomatic processes food.--------------------------------------------------- You seem to lack any knowledge of irony..but that is not surprising.--------------------------------------------------- That the various authors (40 or so) living separately in different times, few having access to all or most of the writings of the others (except the NT authors), being so completely harmonious is not considered an accident, but evidence of a central magnificent 'Chairman' directing the writings over a period of many centuries. No mortal man could have seen to the harmony of those writings. That is just one of dozens of reasons men understand the writings were "God-breathed", i.e. inspired by God in both spoken word and thought.************************************************* Supply evidence LOL!!!! WS: I note that you make no substantive contributions to the discussion, simply requiring evidence which you then deny anyway.The evidence is easily obtained with a little work in a search engine. MUCH is available online concerning the Bible and how its contents are known to be inspired. I could rather post huge texts of all that, filling mailboxes galore. How about that? ----------------------------------------------------------------- LOL! What have you contributed to anything except to say the worldview of yours is the best and that everyone else is stupid and wrong. And do you get all evidence from the internet? You should be less lazy and actually access primary literature. I can find sites that deny the holocaust online or Pamela Anderson giving head to rock stars if I want...that you can find people with the same warped views as yourself online is hardly a surprise or support for your cause.---------------------------------------------- Regardless of the evidences that support the inspiration of the Bible, the unseen God of the Bible requires belief by faith, not evidence alone. He imputed righteousness all along through simple acts of faith, believing the least claim of him but placing themselves in jeopardy doing so.********************************** It must be regardless of the evidence as you have provided nothing but " the bible is true cuz the bible says its true and my buddies say the bible is true therefore it is true". WS: I have provided first person testimony, and there are thousands of books, news articles, textbooks, encyclopedias, and other sources that provide much evidence. Skeptics just disbelieve anyway, illogically, without reason. It isn't practical to list much of it except for people genuinely seeking the information. You are not.-------------------------------------------------- Convenient excuse by you...especially since you have never read anything about evolution.--------------------------------- But since it requires faith to be true it must be false as John and I both do not believe.********************************** WS: Belief or not, the truth remain true. The truth is eternal and unchangeable. Belief or unbelief is voluntary with eternal consequences.-------------------------------------------------- Hey amazing...we argee on your first sentence ---------------------------------- If God had required belief in strictly empirical evidence, then what would he have following him?****************************************** Well educated human beings WS: Contrarily, the more people become "educated" in the secular, the farther they seem to go away from God. Education has value, but too much of it results in exposure to unbelief and a washing away of subtle truths. Peole become distracted, mired down in the affairs of life, missing the quiet voice of the Spirit. --------------------------------------------- LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Keep the people stupid and unquestioning like cows and then they won't wake up and realize they are following a myth blindly. ---------------------------------------------- A bunch of humans believing the evidence, but not particularly believing or trusting HIM. The faith must come first, which He provides the seed of to believe. Then He allows the empirical evidence to pile up, building faith.******************************************+ Again circular arugement, you beleive so the evidence has to support your belief and if it does not it actually does...convenient religion...if you thought the bible entitled you to a free cash withdrawal from your local bank you would be a bankrobber with a clear conscience. WS: Not possible. The Bible never contradicts itself. I already know theft is unlawful, so would never accept an interpretation like yours.---------------------------------------------------------- If it did not contradict itself there would not be so many sects with so many different interpretations of what it says.-------------------------------------- But, you are a free-will agent allowed by God to plow on down the row of your choosing. I came here (and other places) to encourage any other Christians that might read and be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them.********************************************************+ Define what a Christian is since you said most sects (particlarly catholics) are full of crap. WS: A devoted follower of Jesus Christ, possessing His Spirit, His teachings (gospel-good news), and those of His apostles who defined the particulars of the Church setup and operation, as well as living guides, to whom He promised the "more" by the Spirit. Whatever is taught in the New Testament is part of the gospel of Christ, though some is clearly cultural accomodation that can be omitted, such as modes of dress and transportation. The RCC has added the papal authority, which is not Bible-sanctioned. Jesus specifically prohibited several of their major acts.----------------------------------------------------- Ok let me ask this differently, which groups of christian do you not consider to be real christians?---------------------------------- I will continue to expose the fallacy of such arguments as yours as being nothing more than simple non-belief based on simple error-ridden opinion with no basis**************************************** Continue? I did not see that you started WS: "Nos" failed to respond to my disproof of his false alegations..His penchant for finding contradictions in the Bible are beginning to cause his embarrassment. It appears you, too, are on that list. ------------------------------------------------------------- Actually nos smacked you around but you just don't see it...ignorance is bliss.------------------------------ He doesn't want you or anyone else your way or the way of all other religions, including Judaism in any of its ancient or modern forms. He bought every human with His own blood, and requires that each of us just accept that and obey Him.**************************************** Ah so you hate Jews to...great. WS: You exhibit lack of reading comprehension. I left no place for you to arrive at that conclusion. I disrespect their doctrine, believing what Jesus and His apostles had to say about it. Theirs is abolished in the cross. That in no way leaves room for a Christian to hate Jews. They are prime candidates for conversion to Christianity, where they can follow their Messiah.---------------------------------------------------- I think the jews do just fine by themselves...and don't need your conversion...they already have a culture devoted to learning...why would they switch to yours? And their religion preceded yours....so if anyone is right they are There is the One God, a plural trinity of Persons in perfect united harmony, who is revealed in the Bible.********************************** Hindu's have many...and they look cooler WS: Like the great blue stone elephant they pour thousands of precious milk upon daily while children suffer malnutrition for lack of milk? There are hundreds of rediculous acts that destroy them in India and Kashmir, things that would shock most people. Those "cooler" idols are their destruction. They live about 45 years, worn out from malnutrition and excessively hard work and long hours. Yeah, they really have something over there! Do you imagine people from all over the world yearn to live there? I notice they make a flood coming to America. I wonder what the net gain/loss is.------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm maybe because christian colonialists screwed them all over!People like you went over..destroyed their lands and then wonder that they have problems now...LOL! That Bible details the conditions that God requires for salvation and eternal life with Him. His Word says the only path to the Father is by way of his Son, Jesus the Messiah. Obtaining the Heaven (God's Heaven) of the Bible is by one path alone. Gaining it through some other path through some other religion is not possible this side of the cross of Christ.*************************************** But on the other side it works just fine...LOL WS: That broad path to eternal destruction lies on the otehr side where you appear to be. You should reconsider. Sure it works "fine" for a while. Sometimes it's sort of fun to wallow in one's unforgiven sins, but it isn't a lasting satisfaction. There remains that nagging realization our life is but a vapor, a flash in the pan, a test. Eternity is only a flicker away. Poof! It's over so quickly, and so many find themselves there empty handed, ashamed.------------------------------------ You have no evidence of this...and I am doing fine now and will be in the future without your mythology. Those other religions must provide their own eternal destinies in this life, but all with result in a dead-end in the Hell of the Bible. It is rediculous to assert that once the Father gave his Son to be sacrificed for the sins of many that people can come to Him by obedience to some set of rules on earth that ignore that gift to mankind.************************ It is stupid to assert that your religion is correct and all others are wrong WS: Your resort to such words only diminishes your effectiveness. Please look up the word "stupid". I have many good, logical, reasonable, well considered, peer-reviewed reasons to believe the way I do, along with many millions of people around the world who believe as I do.-------------- Guess you will present them at some point? All others severely lack evidence of any interaction with any god thay claim. None of them are blessed by their gods. Just cursed. Theirs don't deliver them. They remain in their misery. But America has been delivered as a nation many times, as was and is Israel, as realized by our generals, in times crushing defeat was all one could reasonably expect, from the voyage of the Pilgrims, to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the great wars.--------------------------------------------- All other religions have just as much evidence as yours. --------------------------- Plenty of people argue against creationists Islamists as well...and nice to see you are a consistent bigot in that you hate jews, muslims, and catholics...now just denigrate a few more relgions and you will have your bases covered and maybe candidacy for the National Front. WS: They argue the Islamic stand against evolution, but not Islam itself like they do against Christianity.----------------------------------------------- First, do you know this for a fact or are you just spouting. Second, it is fundamentalists like you that draw the argument about evoltion into religion not the other way around. If a muslim says evolution is wrong because the Quran says so he will get the same response as a christian...there are even examples on this forum. Like I said, Islam is no less exclusive than Christianity as to path to God, yet your type just won't attack them. Now, either you can point out where I said I hate those people, or you stand as one here who has lied, apparently deliberately. This isn't in the class of just posting something not verifiable or in ignorance. It is a bonafide falsehood on its face.----------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm...you claim anyone that disagrees with your sect worldview is going to hell...I guess you love all those alternative views...you said jews are prime candidates for conversion...I guess you mean forced conversion......you calling me a liar does not make your case any stronger.-------------------------- Atheists and other skeptics so often claim they are just as moral as Christians. So what makes you think lying like that is equal to Christian morality? Is that an acceptable practice among your peers? It appears to me, from your blatant skepticism and lack of integrity is proof our observations of the negative effects of atheism on society are in fact destructive. Will you remain part of that problem?---------------------------- I am more moral than you. I don't base my personal standards on the belief that anything I do is justified by a mythical figure, that I should not do wrong for fear of punishment, that I should only do good because I expect a big reward when I die. My skepticism like that of other skeptics is a sign of intelligence.You are in no position to question my integrity. Your fundie views are the danger to society...so you are the problem not me....so yes, I fully intend to stay a part of your problem. Cheers
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: Given the reasoning in your last sentence you might want to lower your prozac dose or seek electroshock therapy.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
[B] quote: ***************************************************+ LOL!!!That was just the first (not the only) poll I found in direct contradiction to your bogus numbers. You are in absolutely no position to speak for all Americans either by the way. But then you will only accept polls that support your view and dismiss all others obviously. I guess that limits you to polling creationists as to whether they believe in creationism....back to your the bible supports the bible cuz the bible supports the bible...mantra repeats...drool dribbles out side of mouth..fundie in trance Hey nos482...you called it right on the money...he did exactly like you said...stimulus response...stimulus response
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: Do personally have any background in statistics with which to evaluate what is or is not statistically sound? How do you know polls that net similar results are not affected by the same biases? The pollsters with clear agendas, and organizations that purchase polls in support of their agends, are not taken seriously here. So you would have to eliminate all polls by religious organizations It's wise to examine their methods, how they select targets, and how they construct questions. For instance, the incredible pollsters call making a short statement like "we are certain most good Americans like yourself would not wish to be part of slaughter of innocent animals, so would you say you are strongly against commercialization of animals for meat production, moderately against it,... or strongly in favor of the slaughter of innocent animals?" I responded to such a poll recently. I wish I had recorded it. Most people would not say they were in favor of that scenario, but upon hanging up would resume consuming meat. What the pollsters want is what they will likely get, in this case a majority of Americans 'moderately opposing commerical slughter houses', but in reality most do consume meat without regrets and don't support PETA. Actually, I don't completely disagree with what you say in this paragraph. When I see a poll that says 70% of Americans support this or that I think it is heavily dependent on how the question is phrased. And the whole point of my posting the poll results I found was to indicate that you can find polls that support whatever you want and that using google is hardly a way to research a subject.
quote: I don't think that is necessarily accurate. Most Germans I meet are far better educated in history (including American) than most Americans. There is also far better news coverage of both U.S. and world events here. I come from New York and you are in Arizona...do you think you are a better judge of "American" sentiments in New York where I still have regular contact with a variety of people than me?
quote: What is your criteria for distinguishing biased versus unbiased polling and please be specific. All polls are ordered and paid for by some group or individual, so it is necessary to examine the groups.For instance, Barna was commissioned by a consortium of many Christian denominations tht are basically competing. Since the results both please and displeased every denomination, I can believe their poll was accurate, being unbiased, overall being a less than excellent report on the American Church collectively. It is also formally possible that this was a political tactic in order to avoid showing preference for one denomination which would also obscure the truth.
quote: Could you please list those polls? I would be interested in reading them and their methodology...also the state by state breakdowns, education level differences etc...just out of curiosity.
quote: I don't know anyone in paleontology or molecular biology who when asked to support evolution relies on a statement like "textbooks cannot be wrong". In fact due to budget constraints many science classrooms use incredibly outdated textbooks which are full of errors in all branches of science. It's just something they quiclkly forget if they don't entertain it often in their post education years. I for one will not be past my post education years until I die
quote: You won't get any argument from me on the subject of lack of science education in America (and in many countries for that matter). Germans are better in terms of scientific education for example but better does not mean great either.
quote: However, we don't have a system that uses the tyranny of the majority in making decisions (which is good for both you and me as would you want someone with a different religion to force theirs on you?) and science is not a democratic process of building a consensus. Cheers,M [Fixed poor quoting technique. --Admin] [This message has been edited by Admin, 09-20-2002]
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: WS: I had two statistics courses in college, elementary statistics, and intermediate statistics. But it isn't necessary to know anything about that application for this purpose. All the pollsters have been analyzed by statisticians who try to grade them according to their methods. That got really hot when the polls began to favor Bush over Gore, then some polls suddenly arose favoring Gore. Questioning that, it became evident some polls were manipulated out of desperation to win the race. Now, the more credible polls post the basis of their polls, providing the certified facts of how they collect their data. You have to be willing to subscribe to get that information now, starting off free. However, if you have not personally analyzed the questions asked, the distribution of the populations to which the questions were asked, and the raw data, you cannot really know if the polls that you believe in are credible. The pollsters with clear agendas, and organizations that purchase polls in support of their agends, are not taken seriously here.
quote: WS: Not if they commission credible pollsters. The pollsters form the questions and conduct the survey to preserve their own credibility. If they mess up too much, people stop hiring them. The client may sumbit requests for answers to certain questions, but those questions are framed by the pollsters. However, leading questions are not proper, recognized by people like Gallup. There is no criteria by which to measure. If the polls change,even radically, the polling organization (say one that is biased) can say that it was just the results they got that day..as statistical anomaly. You would have to provide evidence of an organization losing its accreditation for "messing up".
quote:quote: Have you actually gone through every poll you find credible and done this?
quote:quote:quote:quote: Did not have your signature line in the response field and I don't keep your details in mind...I do have more important things to do than this sometimes believe it or not But yes, I admit I mislocated you. Now how can you be so certain Germans are more knowledgeable of American history? By what standard of comparison? Easy, ask them detailed questions about political events within the last century and they can state most of the relevant facts back to you. Most know who did what in which war in Europe. Most were keenly watching most major votes that would affect the US constitution. Every major magazine and newspaper dedicates significant space to American political issues. None of this is true in the US. As for your question, I've been in pretty good contact this year with New Yorkers by involvement in 911 discussion groups which are heavily represented by them, plus we view the frequent interviews and opinions of those people on tv. That is nice but I actually LIVED there until one month before September 11th. My landlady lost her son in law as he was a fireman killed that day. I think I have a better grasp of New York than you do. Just as certainly know more about Arkansas than I do as I have never been there.
quote:quote:quote:quote: Do you actually check ALL of these points for all polls?
quote: Hmmm I have heard some people claim that all American media is either liberal biased or conservative biased i.e. CNN was called either the Clinton news network or the christian news network....I think ALL tv reporting in the US is crap because it is done in soundbites with no depth with overly simplistic explanations.
quote:quote: that they accepted without complaint is not evidence of truth. And facts are not facts in this context. How many christian denominations would you expect to answer negatively to your example question by the way?
quote:quote:quote: I'll take a look at it.
quote:quote:quote: However, you seem to think it is ok for the average person who got a high school education to dictate what is taught as science in the classroom in direct opposition to science and the scientific method.
quote:quote: But for some reason when it comes to biology and especially evolution those same people suddenly feel they are experts on the subject when in fact they have no clue what the theory states or what the science is that supports it. It is opposition for oppostions sake rather than a rational response....I don't go to American Chemical Society meetings and protest the fall of the Bohr model because I think it somehow conflicts with my worldview.
quote:quote:quote: LOL!...but I can't laugh to hard...I am also of the generation that is overly dependent on technology...my handwriting has deteriorated to chicken scratch since I almost exclusively use a computer...oh well, progress Cheers,M [Fixed poor quoting technique. --Admin] [This message has been edited by Admin, 09-20-2002]
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6500 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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