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Author Topic:   evolution vs. creationism: evolution wins
RED WOLF
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 310 (176959)
01-14-2005 10:58 AM


Darwin is Dead Jesus is Alive. Who do you trust your life with? There is adaptation yes.
Evolution. I don't believe so. But can it even be proven? There are Three Basic concepts of
Evolution. I Evolution (chance), II Progressive Evolution, III Theistic Evolution. IF all three
believe in evolution--Why does each group "conclusively" PROVE the tother two are
impossible? And How about the evolution of man. There is still no proof of it being true, but it is still being taught.
Heidlberg Man: Built form a jaw bone that was conceded by many to be quite human.
Nebraska Man: Scientifically built up from one tooth and later found to be the tooth of a extinct
pig.
Piltdown Man: The jawbone turned out to belong to a modern ape.
Peking Man: 500,000 years old. All evidence has disapeared.
Neaderthal Man: At the Int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A. J. E. Cave said that his examination of the famous Neanderthal skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of a old man who suffered from arthritis.
Cre-Magnon Man: One to the earliest ans best established fossils is at least equal in physique and brain capasity to modern man...so what is the difference?
Mondern Man: The genius who thinks we came from apes.
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools." Romans 1:22
Evolutionists tested by te Potassium-Argon Method, Strata in which Leakey's Nutcracker Man
was found and reported to be 1 3/4 Million years old. - But when they tested other material in the same strata by Carbon-14, it showed 10,000 yrs old. Which is right?- Dr. Whitelaw, a professor
in nuclear engineering, claims it to be less than 7,000 yrs. old.
A Living mollusk was tested by carbon-14 and found to be dead for 3,000 yrs.
Dr. Melvin Cook said that if oil in the earth was as old as geologists claim (80,000,000 years)it's
pressure would have disipated long before this--the present pressure of oil indicates not over
10,000 yrs.
We've been taught that it took millions of years to produce oil. This is a fact--scientists working
in a lab, produced a barrel of oil from one ton of garbage in only twenty minutes!
We know that the electrons of the atom whirl around the nucleus billions of times millionth of a
second. Also that the nucleus of the atom consists of particles called neutrons and protons.- The
neutrons have no electrical charge and are therefore neutral--But-- The protons have positive
charges. one law of electricity is that--LIKE CHARGES REPEL EACH OTHER! Being that all
of the protons on the nulceus are positivley charged - they should repel each other and scatter into space. What holds them together?
Christ the creator was before all things, and by him all things hold together Col 1:17
-It also says that, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 11:04 AM RED WOLF has not replied
 Message 108 by AdminNosy, posted 01-14-2005 11:04 AM RED WOLF has not replied
 Message 115 by Steen, posted 01-16-2005 6:12 PM RED WOLF has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5890 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 107 of 310 (176963)
01-14-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by RED WOLF
01-14-2005 10:58 AM


You're repeating yourself. See your message 104.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 10:58 AM RED WOLF has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 108 of 310 (176964)
01-14-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by RED WOLF
01-14-2005 10:58 AM


A small slip?
I'm sure your duplication of this post is a small slip up.
I might note that at least you cro magnon comment is an unacknowledge quote from somewhere else. It is against forums rules to plagerize. Since this is just a line it isn't serious but please be careful.
In addition this is not one issue but many that belong in a number of forums. Please take each issue to the appropriate place.
You will find that you are arguing without knowing much, if anything, about what you are discussing.
It is unfortunate that many creationist sites are misleading and dishonest. You should be careful about useing them as a source for your arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 10:58 AM RED WOLF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 11:07 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5890 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 109 of 310 (176969)
01-14-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by AdminNosy
01-14-2005 11:04 AM


Re: A small slip?
She's a one-trick pony, Nosy. She cluttered up your thread with not just one but TWO copies of the same post - back to back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AdminNosy, posted 01-14-2005 11:04 AM AdminNosy has not replied

RED WOLF
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 310 (176990)
01-14-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Quetzal
01-14-2005 9:51 AM


Re: This is a little off course but I think you will find it interesting
Thank you. and I am honestly being sincere. I am new in this site and really don't know my way around. Sure I admit I lack in some areas. but I am just in it to learn and have fun. I am sorry if I annoyed you. I apreciate your directions very much. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 01-14-2005 9:51 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by coffee_addict, posted 01-18-2005 2:39 AM RED WOLF has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 310 (177028)
01-14-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by RED WOLF
01-14-2005 9:14 AM


Re: This is a little off course but I think you will find it interesting
quote:
Darwin is Dead Jesus is Alive.
Jesus is alive?
Can he come over to my house for dinner? That would be cool.
And, you know, I would expect someone born nearly 200 years ago to be dead. How many 200 year old people do you know?
quote:
Who do you trust your life with?
Me.
quote:
There is adaptation yes.Evolution. I don't believe so.
What's the difference?
quote:
But can it even be proven? There are Three Basic concepts of Evolution. I Evolution (chance),
Evolution involves random (chance) mutation combined with natural selection. Selection is the opposite of chance.
quote:
II Progressive Evolution,
What's that?
quote:
III Theistic Evolution.
OK.
quote:
IF all three believe in evolution
All three what? The things you list are concepts or philosophies. They cannot "believe" anything. People "believe" things.
quote:
Why does each group "conclusively" PROVE the other two are impossible?
They do? How so? Please give examples.
quote:
And How about the evolution of man. There is still no prove of it being true, but it is still being taught.
Check out this webpage. It is a nice synopsis of the evidence for human evolution. Please come back here after you have read it and let us know if you have any further questions.
Fossil Hominids: the evidence for human evolution
Oh, and if humans have not evolved, then do you suggest that we are all clones of each other?
quote:
Heidlberg Man: Built form a jaw bone that was conceded by many to be quite human.
I am not familiar with this one. Do you have a link to more information,. preferably with references to the professional scientific literature?
quote:
Nebraska Man: Scientifically built up from one tooth and later found to be the tooth of a extinct pig.
Piltdown Man: THe jawbone turned out to belong to a modern ape.
Both of these hoaxes were discovered very quickly by scientists.
quote:
Peking Man: 500,000 years old. All evidence has disapeared.
You are mistaken. From the above webpage is the following information about Peking Man:
Creationist Arguments: Peking Man
quote:
Neaderthal Man: At the Int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A. J. E. Cave said that his examination of the famous Neanderthal skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of a old man who suffered from arthritis.
Do you think that a source from almost fifty years ago might be kind of out of date, and that paleontology might have progressed a bit since then?
Anyway, there are many neanderthal fossils, read about them here:
Prominent Hominid Fossils
quote:
Cre-Magnon Man: One to the earliest ans best established fossils is at least equal in physique and brain capasity(sic} to modern man...so what is the difference?
Why don't you read the webpage and then tell us what the difference is?
quote:
Mondern Man: The genius who thinks we came from apes.
No, actually that is a major misconception.
Modern humans and modern apes share a common ancestor.
quote:
Evolutionists tested by te Potassium-Argon Method, Strata in which Leakey's Nutcracker Man was found and reported to be 1 3/4 Million years old. - But when they tested other material in the
same strata by Carbon-14, it showed 10,000 yrs old. Which is right?- Dr. Whitelaw, a professor in nuclear engineering, claims it to be less than 7,000 yrs. old.
A reference to the papers where these results were published, please.
quote:
A Living mollusk was tested by carbon-14 and found to be dead for 3,000 yrs.
A reference to the information, please.
quote:
Dr. Melvin Cook said that if oil in the earth was as old as geologists claim (80,000,000 years)it's pressure would have disipated long before this--the present pressure of oil indicates not over
10,000 yrs.
Reference to the source material for this claim, please.
quote:
We've been taught that it took millions of years to produce oil. This is a fact--scientists working
in a lab, produced a barrel of oil from one ton of garbage in only twenty minutes!
Where? When, Who? Reference?
quote:
We know that the electrons of the atom whirl around the nucleus billions of times millionth of a second. Also that the nucleus of the atom consists of particles called neutrons and protons.- The
neutrons have no electrical charge and are therefore neutral--But-- The protons have positive charges. one law of electricity is that--LIKE CHARGES REPEL EACH OTHER! Being that all of the protons on the nulceus are positivley charged - they should repel each other and scatter into space. What holds them together?
I don't know. What do physicists say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 9:14 AM RED WOLF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 01-14-2005 3:06 PM nator has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 310 (177030)
01-14-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
01-14-2005 2:50 PM


Heidelberg Man
NOT a modern human Heidelberg Man

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 01-14-2005 2:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 01-14-2005 4:30 PM PaulK has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 113 of 310 (177035)
01-14-2005 3:32 PM


Fuzzy Topic
Even though this topic is somewhat fuzzy please do not respond to the wildly divergent range of issues here.
You could carry each one to an appropriate thread.

nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 114 of 310 (177050)
01-14-2005 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
01-14-2005 3:06 PM


Re: Heidelberg Man
Ah, excellent link, thanks paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 01-14-2005 3:06 PM PaulK has not replied

Steen
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 310 (177612)
01-16-2005 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by RED WOLF
01-14-2005 10:58 AM


Multiple errors and false claims. Would you mind posting each separately in the "proposed topics" forum so we can respond o them if admin finds them novel and appropriate, please

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RED WOLF, posted 01-14-2005 10:58 AM RED WOLF has not replied

xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6941 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 116 of 310 (178019)
01-18-2005 2:03 AM


Some concerns about proof
This seems to fit in this thread, if not, someone direct me to an appropriate one.
Can someone answer a few questions for me? I used to believe in ToE until I was challenged to provide actual physical proof of the evidence for evolution. Despite the constant claims of unending evidence,I am unable to find any. Having lost faith in the theory. ID seems very appealing to me.
I have been following a few of the threads here and I went to the Talk Origins site as suggested. Unfortunately I wasn’t very satisfied with the information provided as in the following examples, which admit there is very little evidence, if any: Taken from TALK. ORIGINS
The next fossil in the sequence, Pakicetus, is the oldest cetacean, and the first known archaeocete. It is from the early Eocene of Pakistan, about 52 million years ago (Gingerich and others 1983). Although it is known only from fragmentary skull remains, those remains are very diagnostic, and they are definitely intermediate between Sinonyxand later whales
Note that these first, very very old traces of shark-like animals are so fragmentary that we can't get much detailed information. So, we don't know which jawless fish was the actual ancestor of early sharks.
Upper Silurian -- first little scales found.
GAP: Once again, the first traces are so fragmentary that the actual ancestor can't be identified
GAP: Ideally, of course, we want an entire skeleton from the middle Late Devonian, not just limb fragments. Nobody's found one yet.
This is an excellent example of punctuated equilibrium (yes, 500,000 years is very brief and counts as a "punctuation"), and is a good example of why transitional fossils may only exist in a small area, with the new species appearing "suddenly" in other areas. (Horner et al., 1992) Also note the discovery of Ianthosaurus, a genus that links the two synapsid families Ophiacodontidae and Edaphosauridae. (see Carroll, 1988, p. 367)
When the synapsids are investigated further it seems as if there is serious disagreement as to what they actually are:
Evolutionists acknowledge that they cannot yet recognize the specific [cynodont] lineage that led to mammals (Carroll, p. 398). That is why Roger Lewin (1981), summarizing a scientific conference on the matter, wrote: The transition to the first mammal, which probably happened in just one or, at most, two lineages, is still an enigma.
The best Carroll (p. 410) can say is that [i]t is reasonable to believe that the ancestors of mammals can be found among cynodonts such as the chiniquodontids or galesaurids that reduced their body size, probably in relationship to an insectivorous diet (emphasis mine). However, as Carroll (p. 392) points out, the chiniquodontids and galesaurids of the Lower to Middle Triassic reveal only the initial stages in the origin of most of the features that characterize the mammalian skeleton.
This inability to trace the transition from cynodont to mammal is usually blamed on the paucity of fossils. Carroll (p. 392) writes, Unfortunately, the record of the immediate ancestors of mammals becomes less complete in the Upper Triassic. There are, however, fossils of at least two superfamilies, three families, and seven genera of advanced cynodonts from the Upper Triassic (Carroll, p. 624). It just so happens that none of them are suitable as transitions to mammals.
The following is from another website claiming to provide proof of transitional forms, by GR Morton.
378 MYR ago- Panderichthys--These are lobe-finned fish. Panderichthys was a rhipidistian,osteolepiform fish. The skull bones of these fish are bone for bone equivalents to the skull bones of the earliest tetrapods. (Carroll 1988, p. 160). These are the only fish whose fin bones fit the tetrapod pattern of humerus, ulna and radius in the forelimb and femur, tibia and fibula in the hindlimb. (Thomson, 1991, p. 488), Yet these limbs still have fins on them (Coates, 1994,p. 174). Their brain case is so much like that of the earliest tetrapod, they were originally classified as tetrapods until a complete skeleton was found. Then is was proven that they were really still fish. (Ahlberg and Milner, 1994, p. 508).
[Did someone say something about the scientific method?]
-Elginerpeton is a very primitive tetrapod found at Scat Craig, Scotland. Its lower jaw had coronoid fangs as did Panderichthys but they were smaller (Ahlberg 1991, p. 299). The very primitive limb bones found with it include an Ichthyostega-like tibia and an ilia and shoulder girdle comparable to the future Hynerpeton. There are no hands or feet found with the fossil so while the animal is quite tetrapod like in the parts which have been preserved, the final proof of its tetrapod status is missing. (Carroll, 1996, p. 19)
368 MYR- Obruchevichthys was found in Latvia and Russia but is only known from a partial mandible. The similarity between this mandible and Elginerpeton caused Ahlberg (1991) to reclassify this as a tetrapod. This creature also shows the coronoid fangs of the Panderichthys but they were also smaller than the panderichthyid fangs. Daeschler notes that this animal also has the parasymphysial fans of a tetrapod. (Daeschler, 2000, p. 307)
As you can see each example is based on very little fragmentary remains or the critical areas are missing. One of the examples gives a mandible as evidence of a complete genus. Much similar verbiage was printed about the coelacanth and it was almost universally accepted by evolutionists as having transitional features until live ones were discovered and dissected, revealing none of the previously known proto limbs .My question about fossil evidence is then: Does any verifiable fossil evidence exist for transitional forms?
I also noted that the Talk. Origins site stated that there were very few pre Cambrian fossils, yet most of the literature I have found states that the pre Cambrian is rich with fossils, which is true?

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2005 2:13 AM xevolutionist has replied
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-18-2005 2:30 AM xevolutionist has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 117 of 310 (178022)
01-18-2005 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by xevolutionist
01-18-2005 2:03 AM


I used to believe in ToE until I was challenged to provide actual physical proof of the evidence for evolution. Despite the constant claims of unending evidence,I am unable to find any.
I don't quite understand. Were you asked for the evidence, or for "physical proof of the evidence"? I don't understand what that would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by xevolutionist, posted 01-18-2005 2:03 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by xevolutionist, posted 01-18-2005 2:31 AM crashfrog has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 118 of 310 (178027)
01-18-2005 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by xevolutionist
01-18-2005 2:03 AM


Re: Some concerns about proof
Well the problem seems to be not that you cannot find evidence but that you reject it. Rather than looking at the gaps why not look at the fossils that have been found ? While some of the gaps will be filled others are simply down to the limits of the fossil record. Only a minority of species are preserved as fossils. We can't expect vertabrate fossils to be complete either. Essentially you are making unreasonable and unnecessary demands.
As I can see each example is a genuine transitional and a genuine example of evidence for evolution. I have no idea why you reject them - and it certainly makes your story look odd to say the least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by xevolutionist, posted 01-18-2005 2:03 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by xevolutionist, posted 01-18-2005 2:35 AM PaulK has replied

xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6941 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 119 of 310 (178028)
01-18-2005 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by crashfrog
01-18-2005 2:13 AM


Proof
Did you want to criticize my sentence structure? Or are you really asking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2005 2:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2005 2:37 AM xevolutionist has not replied

xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6941 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 120 of 310 (178029)
01-18-2005 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
01-18-2005 2:30 AM


Re: Some concerns about proof
I simply find it hard to see how a mandible can be proof of anything, other than some animal had a mandible. And you say creationists are gullible.
This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 01-18-2005 02:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-18-2005 2:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 01-18-2005 2:46 AM xevolutionist has replied
 Message 126 by Loudmouth, posted 01-18-2005 10:52 AM xevolutionist has not replied

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