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Author Topic:   Tsunami: Please Explain God's Wrathful Intent
Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 153 (176677)
01-13-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by AdminNosy
01-13-2005 5:49 PM


keep 'em bouncing....
What I meant by democrats vs. republicans (sometimes pronounced "derelicts vs. repugnants" or whatever) was not political. I just noticed that whatever decision Bush makes, the dems find something wrong in it. Whatever decision Clinton made, the repubs found something wrong with it. NO MATTER HOW right or wrong the decisions might have been. They support their own guy, and pounce on the other guy. Trust me in at least this one point, because I've watched it from a distance; most folks on this forum like to take "sound bites" from other people's quotes and make an "blown-out-of-proportion" issue out of it, and ignore any good points the writer may have made. Then the sound bites often get twisted and distorted. Then the posts get so far off topic that nobody seems to remember what was the topic was all about (sort of like I'm doing right now). Often, the posters wind up attacking each other in sublte ways. Both sides are very guilty of this; that's just my view, and I have nothing against you if you disagree. But still, the forum is very interesting reading either way, so I'm not really complaining; sort of like reading the opinion and editorial pages of the newspaper/web. Like I said; sort of like watching the repubs and dems in a debate. It keeps the brain cells bouncing, if nothing else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by AdminNosy, posted 01-13-2005 5:49 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by NosyNed, posted 01-13-2005 8:36 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 153 (176683)
01-13-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
01-13-2005 6:41 AM


quote:
Many skeptics of Biblical Christianity despise the implication that God, IF He exists, is so concerned with the wills of the humans on this dustspeck in His glorious and very large Universe.
Actually, "despise" implies a great deal more interest and concern than is accurate.
Most skeptics of Biblical Christianity are not particularly emotionally involved enough to "despise" it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-13-2005 6:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 123 of 153 (176738)
01-13-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Juhrahnimo
01-13-2005 6:21 PM


Good points
You have some good points. However, what do you expect. It is no fun to simply say "Yuppers, Yes, I agree". We learn more and have more fun by picking the weak points that we don't agree with.
It is of course, polite to point out where you agree on substantive issues and we all do forget to do that. It doesn't hurt to check with someone if you think that is happening.
NO MATTER HOW right or wrong the decisions might have been. They support their own guy, and pounce on the other guy. Tr
This part however, is very off the mark. If you watch enough you will see "evos" ripping holes in each other's arguments. The issues are sometimes a bit deep to follow but they do hold each other to rather higher standards than the "creos" might be held to (or at least the same.)
This is NOT analogous to a partisan debate in the political realm.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-13-2005 20:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-13-2005 6:21 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 01-16-2005 6:58 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 153 (176826)
01-13-2005 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Lysimachus
01-13-2005 2:23 PM


Re: Not Satan Every Time. .
It is the work of Satan. However, God has permitted Satan to do these things. God looks down in sorrow to the suffereing. Satan will have his share of the punishment once prophecy is finished fulfilling.
Hi Marcus. I was wondering if you were still aboard. Glad to see you are. Here's a text that you might find interesting and telling:
Luke 12:5;
But I will forwarn you whom you shall fear; Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear him.
Clearly this is in reference to Jehovah God, not Satan, is it not? There are many prophesies of bad stuff to come in the 'latter days' that God, not Satan perpetrates, as I understand the reading of them.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. It is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Lysimachus, posted 01-13-2005 2:23 PM Lysimachus has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 153 (177268)
01-15-2005 12:49 PM


Warning: Do Not Preach Jesus to Tsunami Victims
The following text is exerpted from today's new wire stories:
Indonesia's most influential group of Islamic clerics warned yesterday of a widespread Muslim backlash if international aid groups involved in relief efforts in tsunami-battered Aceh province begin proselytizing and adopting children orphaned from the Dec. 26 disaster.
"This is a reminder. Do not do this in this kind of situation," Dien Syamsuddin, secretary-general of the Indonesian Council of Ulemas, said after prayers in the main mosque of the provincial capital Banda Aceh.
"The Muslim community will not remain quiet. This a clear statement, and it is serious," Syamsuddin said, declining to elaborate on how the community would respond.
Syamsuddin was referring to reports that U.S.-based welfare organization WorldHelp had planned to adopt 300 Acehnese children orphaned by the quake and raise them in a Christian children's home.
The group told The Associated Press on Thursday it has since abandoned those plans, but evangelist Mark Kosinski, a Wisconsin native, told The AP he thought it was impossible to separate relief activities from sharing the Gospel.
"These people need food, but they also need Jesus," Kosinski said. "God is trying to awaken people and help them realize that salvation is in Christ."
http://www.kentucky.com/...aldleader/news/world/10651814.htm
All non-governmental organizations, either domestic or international, with hidden agendas coming here with humanitarian purposes but instead proselytizing, this is what we do not like," said Dien Syamsuddin, secretary-general of the Indonesian Council of Ulemas, as reported by the Associated Press.
At Friday prayers in the main mosque of Banda Aceh, the capital of Indonesia’s Aceh province, the Muslim leader warned international relief workers of a backlash if they brought Christian proselytizing to tsunami-struck Sumatra along with their humanitarian aid.
According to AP, he also condemned reports that Virginia-based World Help had planned to settle 300 Acehnese children orphaned from tsunami-ravaged Aceh to a Christian orphanage outside Jakarta, although the group said Thursday it had the dropped plans after the Indonesian government blocked the move.
http://www.christianpost.com/.../...relief.efforts.with.hidden.agendas/1.htm
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}
I would like to redirect this thread as follows:
Leaving the question of "Tsunami = God's Wrath" aside for the moment, was God's intent, regarding the tsunami, that Christians should convert Muslim tsunami victims to Christianity?
This purpose has been forwarded by previous responders to this thread. Some seem to think that Christians are called by this disaster to witness in Indonesia in order to convert souls to Jesus.
In Post #22, Buzsaw offers that, perhaps Jehovah has allowed this to happen to bring the messengers of truth to these people who have been deprived by their spiritual leaders in order that they be enlightened to the way of the true savior/messiah and (away) from the false doctrines and gods (whom) they presently serve and worship.
In Message #108, Phatboy says this is a lesson that while we help the tsunami victims rebuild, we need not preach to them, but to attempt to convert them to Jesus by example.
Muslim clerics in Indonesia are warning Christian aid workers not to actively proselytize to Muslims tsunami victims, and warn of dire consequences, presumably violent reactions as have occurred against Christian missionaries in other Muslim countries.
New Questions:
1) Was the tsunami an act of God perpetrated for the purpose of activating missionary activity in Muslim communities of Indonesia?
2) Did God intend by the tsunami that Christians actively proselytize in Indonesia against the stated will of Muslim clerics to prevent such proselytization?
3) Are the Muslim clerics warnings against proselytizing in Indonesia a direct disregard of God's (whether He be Jehovah, HaShem, YVHV, Yah, El Shaddai, or Allah) intent regarding the tsunami?
Please feel free to expand on these three questions.
Regards, Abshalom
This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-15-2005 12:52 AM
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-15-2005 13:04 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 01-15-2005 7:12 PM Abshalom has not replied
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 01-15-2005 7:43 PM Abshalom has not replied
 Message 130 by Thor, posted 01-15-2005 9:23 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 153 (177323)
01-15-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Abshalom
01-15-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Warning: Do Not Preach Jesus to Tsunami Victims
1) Was the tsunami an act of God perpetrated for the purpose of activating missionary activity in Muslim communities of Indonesia?
No!
If so it is an unbelievable indictment of GOD. It was also proof that GOD is stupid since the tsunammi killed Christian and Muslim alike.
2) Did God intend by the tsunami that Christians actively proselytize in Indonesia against the stated will of Muslim clerics to prevent such proselytization?
No!
Killing 150,000-200,000 people to get a few brainwashing centers opened is silly. The way to prostelytize is not through brainwashing and preaching, it's through doing. Instead of preaching Christians should just feed, build, comfort, heal.
3) Are the Muslim clerics warnings against proselytizing in Indonesia a direct disregard of God's (whether He be Jehovah, HaShem, YVHV, Yah, El Shaddai, or Allah) intent regarding the tsunami?
Since the answer to 1 & 2 were NO!, the answer to this must be NO! as well.
The Clerics warnings are also pretty silly. If they want to increase interest in Christianity, then ban it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2005 12:49 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 153 (177330)
01-15-2005 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Abshalom
01-15-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Warning: Do Not Preach Jesus to Tsunami Victims
Interestingly, in this regard, that the prophecy I cited in Isaiah 24 is sandwitched with the call for the east ocean islanders and coastal dwellers to give the god of the Bible, Jehovah, glory. It implies that some will indeed do that.
2) Did God intend by the tsunami that Christians actively proselytize in Indonesia against the stated will of Muslim clerics to prevent such proselytization?
The NT calls upon all Christians to be ready to give testimony to the "hope that is within them" and to testify to the gosple of Jesus Christ, forewarning also that in doing so may bring persecution.
3) Are the Muslim clerics warnings against proselytizing in Indonesia a direct disregard of God's (whether He be Jehovah, HaShem, YVHV, Yah, El Shaddai, or Allah) intent regarding the tsunami?
That these clerics are encouraged by the central government in this opposition to Christianity speaks of the lack of personal freedom in of speech in Islamland and all that our first amendment blessus us with. In so doing, these clerics are doing the bidding of their prophet Mohammed, regarding their Quranic god, Allah and forbidding that of the Biblical prophet/messiah, Jesus, son of the Biblical god Jehovah.

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2005 12:49 PM Abshalom has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by crashfrog, posted 01-15-2005 7:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 128 of 153 (177331)
01-15-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
01-15-2005 7:43 PM


If the situation was reversed, and Muslim missionaries came to relieve tsunami-stricken L.A. and Seattle, how would you feel if they openly asserted their destiny and right to convert homeless, vulnerable Americans to the Islamic faith? Remember too that for the positions to be truly reversed one big Muslim nation would have invaded and would even now be occupying a harmless Christian nation at great cost to it's civilians.
How would you feel about that? Honestly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 01-15-2005 7:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2005 11:14 PM crashfrog has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 129 of 153 (177344)
01-15-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Abshalom
01-07-2005 10:53 AM


Inspired by BuzSaw's response
1) Is the recent tsunami in Southeast Asia an example of God's willful and wrathful intent to inflict punishment, vengence, or some other specific intent?
Yes. Yes it is.
2) If God intended punishment or vengence, for what specifically?
He was trying to punish Christian missionaries horning in on Muslim turf.
3) If God intended punishment or vengence, why did He choose a disaster that disproportionately drowns or otherwise afflicts women, infants, the weak, elderly, and affirmed individuals rather than inflicting a punishment that specifically targets "evil doers?"
That's how he's always done things. Read the Bible. He kills sinners. All have sinned. He drowned the Christian missionaries didn't he? That's what counts. He's sorry about all the dead Muslims but hey, isn't it worth it if he can nail those sneaky Christians?
4) If the tsunami is an example of God's Wrath, and God is an omniscient being, then He must realize the after-effects such as cholera, typhoid, starvation, death by thirst, diarrhea, dehydration, exposure, etc.; are those afflictions also God's intended wrath, and if so, are the relief efforts actually a work of mankind against God's Intent, hence "SIN?"
Yes, he does realize all that and yes, they are intentional side effects. He wants you to remember who you're dealing with. Our God is an awesome God! And yes, the relief workers, the Christians anyway, are working against his will. If he hadn't wanted all those people dead he could have prevented it. No problem. But hey! There's plenty more where those came from. And besides, they're all in heaven now. Or hell. Nothing we can do about it.
Besides, as long as he's building the Himalayas, there's gonna be some shakin' goin' on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2005 10:53 AM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
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Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 130 of 153 (177353)
01-15-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Abshalom
01-15-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Warning: Do Not Preach Jesus to Tsunami Victims
1) Was the tsunami an act of God perpetrated for the purpose of activating missionary activity in Muslim communities of Indonesia?
Taking advantage of the situation of disaster victims in order to gain more followers is quite immoral I'd say. There are lawyers who do something similar by profiting from the victims of accidents. They are often called 'ambulance chasers'
But God in this case would be even worse as he actually caused the disaster to begin with. Even the average ambulance chaser would (hopefully!) draw the line at actually causing someone to have an accident, in order to gain from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2005 12:49 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 153 (177482)
01-16-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by NosyNed
01-13-2005 8:36 PM


Leave those Muslims alone!
One side says that all beliefs are relative. The other side says that there is an absolute truth, that Jesus is the answer, and that it is their God given mission to proselyze.
My advice to them: Treat the Muslims as Jesus would treat them. Comfort them. Feed them. Do not preach to them, because they will receive Gods love from you based on your actions...Not your words.
IF you are right and Jesus IS the only way to God, they will receive Him through your love and actions. Jars religion of action applies here.
Everything happens for a reason, and California or Washington State may soon have a natural disaster of their own to deal with on this large scale. Not because God caused it. Because it was mean't to happen as a consequence of geothermal behavior.
These things must happen.
We will be judged in regards to our response to the victims.
Our choice is either to give selflessly or selfishly.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-16-2005 05:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 153 (177499)
01-16-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by doctrbill
01-15-2005 8:51 PM


Welcome Muslim Relief Aid Proselytizers
Well, thank y'all for your thoughtful responses, especially Doctor Bill who, in Message 129, answered all but one of the OP questions as well as tying them in with the latest dialog. Good job, Doc; you only left unaswered whether aid work should be considered a sin as it directly contradicts God’s intended punishment of the victimed sinners. But somehow I know what you'd say.
And Thor, your Message 130 introduces a twist on the humanitarian aid thing by equating the Christian missionaries with ambulance chasing lawyers. Wow, no one else even hinted at that irony.
Then Fatboy, in Message # 131, reminds us that everything happens for a reason (is that a predestination thing?) and Crashfrog reminds us in Message 128 that our own American Pacific Coast is due for its own earthshaking natural disasters. So, it’s implied that we should prepare to open our our arms, our shorelines, our homes, and our hearts to Muslim missionaries who come to save lives and souls when the West Coast is hit by earthquakes and tsunamis in the future.
Now, please remember early on, in a link in Gilgamesh’s Message 21, this quote:
The shorelines of many Asian countries hit by the waves - including Indonesia - had become playgrounds for Westerners and errant Muslims. Vices such as prostitution and drinking were rife, (the Muslim cleric said). "Allah first sends small punishments - like loss of business. If we ignore the warning, He sends bigger ones - loss of life. If we still ignore the warnings, the big punishments, like earthquakes and tsunamis will come."
So, based upon the Muslim interpretation that the Indian Ocean tsunami indeed was the Biblical God’s wrath, and based on our apparent consensus at this point in the thread that good, God-fearing folk should respond by witnessing to the wicked sinners victimized by supernatural disasters, we must expect and welcome Muslim proselytizers when God inflicts punishment on those wayward, wine drinking, same sex marrying, nude beach sunbathing, West Coast heathens. To do less would be a sin
This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-16-2005 09:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by doctrbill, posted 01-15-2005 8:51 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 153 (177703)
01-16-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by crashfrog
01-15-2005 7:47 PM


Re: Situation Reversed Senario
If the situation was reversed, and Muslim missionaries came to relieve tsunami-stricken L.A. and Seattle, how would you feel if they openly asserted their destiny and right to convert homeless, vulnerable Americans to the Islamic faith? Remember too that for the positions to be truly reversed one big Muslim nation would have invaded and would even now be occupying a harmless Christian nation at great cost to it's civilians.
How would you feel about that? Honestly?
1. If Muslims had enough compassion for "infidels" to sacrifice all the man hours, money, equipment and goods to help another country unable to help themselves that we have done and continue to do for them, I'd say their religion would be worth listening to.
2. Americans tolerate debate and freedom of religion, regardless of whether it is the majority religion of the nation.
3. Likely it wouldn't happen, even if it meant millions of deaths. As with 9/11, Indonesian Muslim clerics and their flocks would likely have rather danced in the streets than to come to our rescue. Look how meager the aid from oil rich Muslim nations was for their own brothers......and to think they'd care a snap about helping a contemptable infidel?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-16-2005 23:15 AM

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by crashfrog, posted 01-15-2005 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 01-17-2005 12:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 151 by Tusko, posted 02-08-2005 11:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 153 (177704)
01-16-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by doctrbill
01-15-2005 8:51 PM


Re: Inspired by BuzSaw's response
That's how he's always done things. Read the Bible. He kills sinners. All have sinned.
Rather he's been saving and converting sinners to saints for many centuries, patiently extending grace to sinful humanity, regardless of the rejection of the majority, holding off his wrath, but the time comes when sinners will destroy the world and themselves without his intervention, so he begins to clean house for something better to come.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-16-2005 23:33 AM

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by doctrbill, posted 01-15-2005 8:51 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 01-16-2005 11:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 153 (177707)
01-16-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
01-16-2005 6:58 AM


Re: Preach Brother!
Do not preach to them, because they will receive Gods love from you based on your actions...Not your words.
IF you are right and Jesus IS the only way to God, they will receive Him through your love and actions. Jars religion of action applies here.
It's very good to heal their wounds, feed and clothe the hungry and naked, et al, but the apostle Paul said, "How shall they hear without a preacher?" What's more important, their temporal bodies, or their eternal souls?

In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 01-16-2005 6:58 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Trixie, posted 01-17-2005 3:51 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 141 by jar, posted 01-17-2005 5:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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