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Author Topic:   For The Record, Here's What They Said (Justification for Iraq War)
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 5 of 47 (177218)
01-15-2005 7:02 AM


"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

You guys make it too easy.

This message has been edited by Tal, 01-15-2005 07:03 AM


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 7:45 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 7 of 47 (177226)
01-15-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
01-15-2005 7:45 AM


Whatever makes you sleep at night holmes.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 7:45 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 8:19 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 9 of 47 (177231)
01-15-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
01-15-2005 8:19 AM


You do have a strong argument for the lack of WMD, but that is not the only reason we came to Iraq. It was just one reason.

Are the WMD here in Iraq like we thought? No. Score one for you.

Are/were there some WMD and the means to deliver them? Yes. One for me.

Have the inspectors left and found nothing? Yes. Chalk one for you.

Is that the final say in the WMD drama? No. More info will come out on where they went. But I know you guys are jumping all over the headline that the inspectors have now left and found doodle. Keep that in mind for the future, because I'm going to come back and post a big "see I told you so" when they find somemore, use some on us, or finally decide to declassify intel reports (which won't happen with the insurgency going on).


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 8:19 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 11:30 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 11 of 47 (177296)
01-15-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
01-15-2005 11:30 AM


Yet he did not use it when his very regime and life were coming to an end? Does that make any common sense to you?

He didn't use them in the Gulf War, and he definately had them then.

The only way it makes sense is that he simply did not have the vast amounts of WMDs being discussed, nor had the ability to deliver them, at least not in any rapid and useful (for him) degree.

I'll answer that with a quote from President Bush.

"I think he dispersed them. I think he is so adapted at deceiving the civilized world for a long period of time that it's going to take a while for the troops to unravel. But I firmly believe he had weapons of mass destruction. I know he used them at one time."

The fact that he had rockets here, or artillery there, and then way over some other places he had some remnant stocks which were degraded material, some just forgotten shells with chemicals so weak they were no longer lethal, is a far cry from a nation with WMDs and the capability to deliver them.

Just a point of clarification. Most of the shells we've found and/or were exploded as IEDs are artillery shells. They could have been fired out of any of his artillery pieces. The rounds are designed to airburst, but detonating them on the ground will have a much less dramatic effect. I'm fairly sure the guys exposed to nerve agent can tell us how weak the chemicals were.

The whole point is if there were enough and with delivery systems capable of Iraq posing an imminent, or potentially imminent threat to the US or its neighbors such that the ONLY method of dealing with the situation was an invasion which would invariably kill thousands of innocent people.

You mean like he had already done before?


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Silent H, posted 01-15-2005 11:30 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 01-15-2005 4:22 PM Tal has responded
 Message 13 by Rrhain, posted 01-15-2005 7:56 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Silent H, posted 01-16-2005 5:46 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 15 of 47 (177502)
01-16-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
01-15-2005 4:22 PM


Doesn't that rather undercut the position that "he would definately have used them if he had them?" I mean, if the guy doesn't use WMD's on us even when he has them and we're right at his doorstep, how much of a threat to us could he have been?

If he had used them we wouldn't be having this discussion. Using the WMD on the US, or any of his neighbors, would simply have solidified everybody against us.

It's the same logic for N. Korea. They have nukes, but if they ever launch one, against anybody, we'll turn N. Korea into a glass parking lot.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 01-15-2005 4:22 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 01-16-2005 2:01 PM Tal has responded
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 01-16-2005 10:02 PM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 16 of 47 (177504)
01-16-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Silent H
01-16-2005 5:46 AM


This really does undercut the theory that he was a madman willing to use them anytime anywhere.

See post 15.

That should tell you something, about his having them in strength and/or his madman attitude toward using them.

He wasn't stupid enough to use them, but he was stupid enough to fund terrorists and could have/might have already supplied them with NBC weapons.

We are also creating mass graves.

I'll call your BS on this one. But just so I am clear, before I flame you, are you comparing the US's battle with the insurgents to Saddam's mass graves?

It was the end.

Not quite.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Silent H, posted 01-16-2005 5:46 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Silent H, posted 01-17-2005 2:49 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 19 of 47 (177733)
01-17-2005 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
01-16-2005 10:02 PM


But that doesn't help you.

If he would never use them, how could he possibly be a threat?

He didn't seem to have a problem with firing Scud missiles into Israel and we didn't carpet bomb Iraq. What on earth would have stopped him from firing a nuke?

I already covered this, but I'll do it again.

If he would have nuked Isreal, Iraq would be a glass parking lot, as well as a few other middle eastern countries because they sure wouldn't just sit by and watch Isreal nuke Iraq....then WWIV would have been kicked off in grand style. Oh, and if anyone is confused this is WWIV right now.

The threat came from Saddam selling his WMD to terrorists that would like to use them against US targets.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 01-16-2005 10:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2005 2:20 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 22 of 47 (178039)
01-18-2005 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
01-16-2005 2:01 PM


Yes, it is the same logic for N. Korea.

Which you'll notice, we haven't invaded.

Yet.

And even then I'm pretty sure Iran is a higher priority and I do believe Syria is working to get on our bad side.

This message has been edited by Tal, 01-18-2005 03:59 AM


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 01-16-2005 2:01 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by contracycle, posted 01-18-2005 5:48 AM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2005 11:39 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 23 of 47 (178040)
01-18-2005 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by berberry
01-17-2005 3:27 PM


Re: Is the upcoming election the best hope?
Bear in mind these are not THE elections. They are electing 500+ people that will write the Iraqi constitution. This is simply the first step in a long process. If the Iraqi constitution isn't finalized and ratifies by next December, we'll be repeating this next January until a constitution is finalized.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by berberry, posted 01-17-2005 3:27 PM berberry has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 28 of 47 (178162)
01-18-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
01-18-2005 11:39 AM


derisive?


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2005 11:39 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 35 of 47 (179597)
01-22-2005 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Rrhain
01-22-2005 5:13 AM


Re: Is the upcoming election the best hope?
It took two years after the surrender of Japan for the creation of a new Constitution. And while we officially turned Japan back over to the Japanese in 1952 (seven years after the surrender), it didn't really become full until we returned Okinawa in 1972 (25 years after the surrender).

And look at Japan today.

Bush seems to think that the invasion, conversion, occupation of, and withdrawal from Iraq was something that could be carried out in a year, two tops. Since he ran into it completely blind with absolutely no plan, this is not surprising. He has no sense of history and refuses to learn from anybody who might have any experience who would dare contradict his "vision."

Yeah, we just rolled into the country with no plan. Who needs plans?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There was a plan, but no plan survives first contact. I worked for the Deputy Chief of Staff, Strategy, Plans, and Assessment for 5 months. The Campaign Plan evolves from day to day, week to week, and month to month. To say there was no plan going into this is ignorant.

If we want to provide them hope and opportunity, then we need to get it into our thick skulls that we have to occupy the entire country and not just this piddly-ass shit that Bush came up with since he refused to listen to his military commanders telling him he needed to send more troops.

Ah, a strategist! Would you like to come to Iraq and present this to the CG? The best way to provide them with hope and opportunity is to train up their Army and National Guard so we can pull our forces out.

And then we need to understand that we are going to be there for at least a decade if not longer.

We'll have forces permanently deployed here, much like Germany and Japan, but we won't stay here with this strength for that long.

Not only is it going to fix it, it's going to make it worse.

Again, keep in mind they are electing the 500+ people who will write their constitution. They are not electing any officials. This is simply the first step in a long process.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2005 5:13 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Silent H, posted 01-22-2005 9:41 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 37 of 47 (179624)
01-22-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Silent H
01-22-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Is the upcoming election the best hope?
This is true. The problem was that there were very bad plans going into this which did not take into account warnings from many sectors outside the Bush clique as well as some common sense needs for a postwar environment of a nation that has been oppressed by a dictatorship for decades and no set replacement entity.

THE mistake was disbanding the Iraqi Army. I could see getting rid of a few key leaders, but getting rid of the whole thing just gave the Bathists leaders actual bodies. Once the foreigners came in they all hooked up, and we have what you see today.

Of course if you ask an Iraqi, they will tell you that all of the insurgents are foreigners, because Iraqis wouldn't kill Iraqis.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Silent H, posted 01-22-2005 9:41 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Silent H, posted 01-22-2005 10:59 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 42 of 47 (296282)
03-17-2006 2:15 PM


Update Evidence tying UBL/Al Qeada to Saddam/Iraq
As this information becomes unclassified I will be sure to update the good people of EVC. I had read this information when I was in Baghdad, but couldn't share it with you because it was classified SECRET.

But now..it is not.

March 16, 2006 — Following are the ABC News Investigative Unit's summaries of four of the nine Iraqi documents from Saddam Hussein's government, which were released by the U.S. government Wednesday.

The documents discuss Osama bin Laden, weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda and more.

The full documents can be found on the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office Web site: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm.

Note: Document titles were added by ABC News.

"Osama bin Laden and the Taliban"

Document dated Sept. 15, 2001

An Iraqi intelligence service document saying that their Afghani informant, who's only identified by a number, told them that the Afghani Consul Ahmed Dahastani claimed the following in front of him:

That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.

At the end, the writer recommends informing "the committee of intentions" about the above-mentioned items. The signature on the document is unclear.

(Editor's Note: The controversial claim that Osama bin Laden was cooperating with Saddam Hussein is an ongoing matter of intense debate. While the assertions contained in this document clearly support the claim, the sourcing is questionable — i.e. an unnamed Afghan "informant" reporting on a conversation with another Afghan "consul." The date of the document — four days after 9/11 — is worth noting but without further corroboration, this document is of limited evidentiary value.)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1


People don't kill people
Cartoons kill people

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2006 2:18 PM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3998 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 44 of 47 (296296)
03-17-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by crashfrog
03-17-2006 2:18 PM


Re: Update Evidence tying UBL/Al Qeada to Saddam/Iraq
You didn't see that bit at the end? "Limited evidentiary value"?

Why do you think I listed it in my post? Limited? Yes. But the fact is it does have value.

How do we know these aren't government forgeries?

ABC would know about forged documents wouldn't they? I would think they have learned their lesson by now.

This message has been edited by Tal, 03-17-2006 02:25 PM


People don't kill people
Cartoons kill people

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2006 2:18 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2006 3:34 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2006 4:11 PM Tal has not yet responded
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