Is there such a thing as chance?

Its amazing how you are stuck on carbon dating specifically. I wasn't really refering to carbon dating, but chance. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If that is true the determinism is correct, and we just average things because we just don't know all the variables, or we can't measure them yet. It is not contradictory. It is pointing out the difference between humans and the rest of the universe. We have minds that make thought decsions. Not mearly from human instinct like animals, but we communicate to each other. Plus good and evil has determining factors.
Determinism deals with pyhsical things, and our thoughts are not pyhsical, so they don't fall into the same category as the rest of the universe. Starting with what I just said about the human mind and thought process, there are many things that separate humans from the rest of the pyhsical universe. Unless you feel your life is not special. The fact that you are in here debating these very thoughts would indicate otherwise. Your mere existance would also reinforce that idea. Just because you can come out and say human life is not special, makes it special.

Actually I was expecting you to continue this as a way to challenge the dating method. I can let it rest. (for now). Or they are just unknowable and the result of random chaos in the system, the manifestation of the subatomic uncertainty. Certainly for our current level of knowledge there are enough unknown variables that we cannot rule out the ultimate existence of randomized uncertainty. What difference? At the sub-atomic scale there is none, at the cosmic scale there is none. We are composed of the same elements, from the same molecular structures, from the same proteins as other {earth-bound} life. Other animals communicate, some in ways that we cannot. Other animals have displayed understanding of good and evil — even ones with less brain mass than early humans — so that would make {those concepts} a more universal mental construction than just human. Other animals display learning and invention and teaching. What is different about humans? Perhaps it is our conceit? Actually our thoughts are physical, they are formed by electrons traveling neuron paths and forming chemical structures. According to your precept above, they must be as deterministic as the rest of the universe. According to my precept new thoughts can be derived from the action of {random\chaotic\uncertain} elements in the brain. Sorry, you did not demonstrate that assertion. Either there are {random\chaotic\uncertain} elements that allow {thought\will\consciousness} to {chose\decide\change} or there aren’t. And if there are, they apply to the whole universe in equal measure. I think all of existence is special, but that humans are a small realtively unremarkable ("mostly harmless") element of that whole picture. As I said, there is nothing in the universe as a whole to indicate any special status for humans or even for intelligence. This special-ness is just human conceit. Self-indulgent conceit.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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The Christian's own criteria colored by what?

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I try very hard to not color it at all, but to take the criterion as plainly and as straightforward as I can.Each Christian's criterion are usually different, though, so I usually have to ask a lot of questions to get the criterion clear.I have asked you lots of questionst to try to do just that, but I'm afraid that it seems that you are not much for making yourself crystal clear WRT your criterion for what makes a real Christian.

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The experience that changed your mind?

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There was not a single experience.Indeed, it was more that I noticed that the experiences and feelings I was "supposed" to be having being a believe weren't happening to me. I had too many questions, noticed too many inconsistencies, realized that there was no way to tell the difference between real religious experience and false ones.

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Never mind, Schraf. Keep up the good work, we need you to help us stay on our toes.

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Be careful what you wish for.

Mr. Rogers told me I was special.

There is no set rule, so far as I'm concerned, as to what makes a 'real' Christian. It is simply a matter between the man and his maker, or the woman. It is not the 'Borg'.
As for inconsistencies? What you have found is for you to handle, but it is not for you to project on others who are compelled to call your clouds sunny weather, or vice versa.
If you are happy with your choices, see it in yourself to let me be happy with mine.
You see no beauty in Christ? I see nothing else.
I do, however, have it much better than you. For I also see rewarding beauty in all of science, regardless.
I am a careful wisher, for I believe in the intelligence of a fellow being until it willfully demonstrates otherwise and it does so when it denies others the right to self-determination.This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 01-17-2005 15:58 AM

Hi Pecos. How can you say you have it much better? You are making an assumption about anothers personal life of whom you know nothing about. Because someone does not share in your beliefs does not diminish that person, nor does it diminish your beliefs. Peace.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Thank you. No diminishment intended, just my opinion that I have the best of both worlds, religion and science, and Schraf does not share this.
Tohido, good peace to you as well.(Don't you just love Texas?)

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There is no set rule, so far as I'm concerned, as to what makes a 'real' Christian. It is simply a matter between the man and his maker, or the woman. It is not the 'Borg'.

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Well, does that mean that anyone who calls themselves a Christian, no matter how heinous their behavior or views, can still be a "true" Christian in your eyes?

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As for inconsistencies? What you have found is for you to handle, but it is not for you to project on others who are compelled to call your clouds sunny weather, or vice versa.

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Let me explain. By "inconsistencies", I mean the fact that there are so very many religions that are currently practiced, or have been practiced in the past. Most of them claim to be the Truth, and that all the others are wrong. They can't all be right, and the largest determinant of what religion you will be is the place you were born combined with the religion of your parents.

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If you are happy with your choices, see it in yourself to let me be happy with mine.

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I have no problem with whatever anyone believes. However, when people start to claim that theirs is the One True Faith, and that another faith, or lack of faith, is inferior to their view, I have a problem.The Christians I have encountered on this board generally think it's normal to think their worldview is superior to all others.That bugs me.

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You see no beauty in Christ? I see nothing else.

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I see much beauty in the Bible and in the concept of Christ, just as I see beauty in Zen, in the Buddah, in the Great Spirit, in Krishna, and in many other religious myths that have great messages of love and life.Doesn't make any of them the One True Faith.

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I do, however, have it much better than you.

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No kidding? How so?

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For I also see rewarding beauty in all of science, regardless.

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No, I clearly have it better than you, because I can appreciate the beauty in Jesus, but I can also appreciate the beauty in Zen, in the Buddha, in the Great Spirit, and in Krishna. I would guess that you would not allow yourself to approach these religions in the open way that I can.

------------Well, does that mean that anyone who calls themselves a Christian, no matter how heinous their behavior or views, can still be a "true" Christian in your eyes?------------no. Can a Buddhist who calls himself so, be one if he does opposite the teachings of Buddha?------------Let me explain. By "inconsistencies", I mean the fact that there are so very many religions that are currently practiced, or have been practiced in the past. Most of them claim to be the Truth, and that all the others are wrong. They can't all be right, and the largest determinant of what religion you will be is the place you were born combined with the religion of your parents.-------'Sheep have I that are not of this flock'...says the Christ. It simply means he has children everywhere. And the sheep know his voice and when he calls them to come to him, they will come. It's in the Bible.-----------I have no problem with whatever anyone believes. However, when people start to claim that theirs is the One True Faith, and that another faith, or lack of faith, is inferior to their view, I have a problem.
The Christians I have encountered on this board generally think it's normal to think their worldview is superior to all others.
That bugs me.---------so it bugs you, something has to, that's life. Again, Christ has sheep in other flocks, many, many, many. The Christians you mention will do well to think on that.--------------I see much beauty in the Bible and in the concept of Christ, just as I see beauty in Zen, in the Buddah, in the Great Spirit, in Krishna, and in many other religious myths that have great messages of love and life.
Doesn't make any of them the One True Faith.--------Sheep has he that are not of his immediate flock. Myth is what you want? Please help yourself.--------------I do, however, have it much better than you.----
No kidding? How so?-------------perhaps you understand making it all yours? I make it all mine. Really, so glad to read it.--------------No, I clearly have it better than you, because I can appreciate the beauty in Jesus, but I can also appreciate the beauty in Zen, in the Buddha, in the Great Spirit, and in Krishna. I would guess that you would not allow yourself to approach these religions in the open way that I can.------------You would guess incorrectly. For I have great appreciation for the sheep Christ has in other flocks. I am an adopted Cherokee because I understand and know the things of the Spirit they practice and believe, and I am told in a way few whites are able. I go weekly to a Chinese Christian church, I am different but only outwardly (ever eat a very black duck egg? Really yummy). I couldn't care less how people appear, but I do care if they are mean and wish to destroy.

Actually the opposite. Proving that there is no chance except for human intervention, would mean that we would eventually get a full grip on carbon dating. Right now, from what I know, there is no reason to challenge carbon dating. It seems to be pretty accurate up to a point. Random chaos? or our ignorance. Something has to cause it to be chaotic, or random, somthing that is predetermined. Then its not really random anymore. Seems like this random thing, is a word put there by scientists because they just don't know yet. They can't see all the variables, or what is affecting it.My general, mostly uneducated feeling, is the it can all be figured out. To me it is proof of God's existance. For things that we cannot touch or affect are out of our control, and on a predetermined course set in motion by creation. Our free will is the only thing in the universe that can change an outcome. Maybe or maybe not. We might not be the only ones capable of random thoughts altering what is predetermined. But we really just don't know what an animal is thinking do we. Maybe God created the animals that way too. Then it would only be plant life, and non-living things that are determined. There is so many things different in humans, including our conceit. For one thing do animals worship God? Well since our spirit hasn't been disproven, I wouldn't say that with 100% certainty. Well since you don't seem to believe in spirit, its kind of hard to argue with you about it. It's all about 2 things, good and evil. We as humans cannot make a single decsion in our lives that somehow doesn't relate to being good or evil, with God or not with God. There is nothing chaotic/random/uncertain about it. Its just free will, and breaks a line of determinism. If you don't think I'm right, thats fine too. At least now you can maybe look around and see, and one day you might come to the same conclusion.I would also tend to say that determinism is for the known universe.Determinism can also help explain why we are born into sin. How would you feel about us mere humans if we found out that we are the only ones in the universe?

Pecos, I love that you are in here trying to preach God's word.
I encourage you to prayerfully work out your responses, so that the word of God may be spoken through you.Try to avoid contradicting yourself, or judging.You say this:

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There is no set rule, so far as I'm concerned, as to what makes a 'real' Christian. It is simply a matter between the man and his maker, or the woman. It is not the 'Borg'.

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Then go on to say:

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I do, however, have it much better than you. For I also see rewarding beauty in all of science, regardless.

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So you imply that you know whats on this girls heart, because you feel you have it better than her. She might be the most beautiful person on the inside, and closer to Jesus than any of us for all we know.You said yourself its between the person and the maker.Also try to use quotes when responding to people. There is a thread in here that explains how to do all that. Its in the help link next to your signature, in your profile.Do you know what makes a good prophet in the bible?*edit* spellingThis message has been edited by riVeRraT, 01-17-2005 22:29 AM

Good. If you care to discuss what that point is, an appropriate forum is {{Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II.}}Your faith in our ability to understand the whole entire universe in all its myriad diverse and numerous interactions is charming.Are you familiar with string theory in physics? One of the offshoots of it is a theory called the ‘brane theory that explains the universe formation similar to the standard theory, but with a little difference in a couple of significant points, one of which being that it does not need any dark matter or dark energy to make the observed motions of major systems (galaxies and gas clouds etc) match the theoretical result. All it requires is an additional dimension or two to the universe (it also makes some predictions about what should be observed in the way of gravity waves that will differentiate it from the standard model — that is how scientific theory works eh?).The point being, that if this theory is correct, then there are other dimensions to the universe that we {are\will always be} incapable of {observing\measuring\understanding\predicting} and that this will in effect confirm the ultimate existence of randomized uncertainty as far as the possible capability of human science is concerned. Why? All you give is an assertion based on your incredulity on the issue.Consider that the basic building blocks of the universe across the board is founded on uncertainty. The sub-atomic particles dance in and out of existence, become different particles or even different numbers of particles within a {cloud} of uncertainty and we can never know the exactness of what particle is there and how much momentum it has and how fast it is moving in which direction ... we get to know half the story, and that is it. Thus the very foundation of the universe as we know it is quivering on top of basic random chaos, and it is unavoidable and it is beyond our capability to determine.Perhaps it is motion in and out of other dimensions per the string theory mentioned above where all the particles in what we know as the {probability cloud} are interacting in a way that is beyond our ability to determine, or perhaps it is the {ultimate reality of randomized existence}.The point being, that regardless of whatever theory of the universe is correct that we will not be able to determine the full description of the behavior at its most basic level, and everything above that is based on those {average behaviors of large numbers of particles} as discussed previously for radioactive decay,AND for all intents and purposes, that there will always be {motion\behavior} that will not be predictable because it will be at the {small number of particle} level where you just cannot make even an educated guess.And then there are systems where very definite and careful input still result in chaotic results, computer programs that generate chaos, natural systems that behave in a chaotic manner. The image of a butterfly in brazil causing a typhoon in Fiji 2 years later kind of thing. Then you must also be familiar with the adage that the more you know about a topic the more you know what you don’t know about it. I suggest that an effort be made to become more educated about it or to be less enthusiastic in your trust of ability. Again, this is an assertion based on your personal (limited) viewpoint. First off I don’t believe that free will is a real issue, nor that the ability to make decisions rests solely with humans (in fact I find the concept incredibly arrogant and condescending to other life). Certainly we are not the only species able to manipulate our environment. There is no maybe about it — it has been observed. It has been documented. It is fact. And there are some other species that we can communicate with as well. Not all humans do that ... so are they less human because of that? Interesting that your only choice of one of those so many things has the problem of assuming the existence of god as a fact, rather than, say, a psychological aberration applicable only to humans that other animals are not afflicted with — that would make us different but not special (unless you are talking of the short bus variety ). How about an example that is not based on faith but on mutually agreeable {fact\observation}? What is spirit? If you cannot determine its existence and measure it then how can you say that it would only be humans that have it rather than it being a universal essence of life? Strawman. I never said anything like that. Tell me how spirit is measurably different from the {being that is not being \ the is that isn’t} of buddhism? If you are going to use a concept then you have to be able to define it. If it is claimed as special to only one group of individuals then it must be {measurable\determinable\discernable} or it is nothing more than a (weak) opinion. But we aren’t. Isn’t that simple? Then I would say that is good evidence that we are not special, because we certainly are not central to even this solar system to say nothing about this galaxy. Are lice special? Are viruses?Personally I think that other life will be found and that it will (a) be significantly different from ours and (b) have evolved and be evolving and (c) probably not care about us in the slightest being too enamored with their own existence (if we are any model to go by).Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Hi AllMy post is relevant to chance, but is in response to a discussion on Moral Judgements.
I hope no-one minds me posting it here, posting it on the moral thread may have confused the topic.Chance & Value Perhaps as you say we have no purpose, but we are here, and because of that I believe we have value. To say all is chance, would be denying the existence of relativity completely. I tend to believe that it is actions which determine our existence, and has done since the day dot. Take Darwin, he was a Christian, he also had a grandfather who influenced his life and theories; when Darwin’s daughter died he concluded that evolution was the explanation rather than God as creation. Again Freud, he was born in a caul, and was fettered as being a person of significance because of the caul superstition. Being the only boy, he was also pampered, so the affect of these things helped to shape each as a person, and subsequent theory. This principle applies to all existence, what we do determines the coexistence of all, including relevance to the universe. Though our actions may appear to be minute by comparison, they are still relevant in the domino affect. Thought, mores, or code of conduct I don't believe can be regarded as irrelevant or no value. Actions stem from thought, thoughts stem from actions. By our actions we influence thought, and by our thoughts we determine actions, each is a link in the chain and we polish it how we see fit, each chain is in turn a link in a net. If such was the case in its entirety why are we here? No matter how far one goes back, even to Precambrian time, there was still life, plants. Is it a sequence of events, natural occurrence, or is it ours to determine? Personally I say it is ours to determine, for every action there is meaning and consequence, to look at a big picture one must look at correlation or relativity, i.e. if you consider decomposing matter, it is not feasible to merely consider aspect A upon aspect B, there is more than that. Other elements necessary for decomposition (flies, maggots whatever it is), and then in turn that decomposition affects the composition of the soil, and water run of. So aspect A & B, are also components of C, D, E and so on. So there is meaning and consequence, but the extent is not necessarily known firsthand as the domino affect plays out. Will earth continue to revolve around the sun for billions of more years? I don’t believe any of us can answer that, but I believe if we are not careful it may be that it won’t, and it could equally be because of us.Violations & Domino effect: I have no idea what is beyond the physical universe, but if there is anything then yes I would say the chain link would still be in place, and that the ramifications of a vanishing universe would be a part of it. Much the same as if there was only point A & B, in existence if you travel from point A to B, regardless of how you get there, or what tales you tell when you arrive, the journey is over. Should B then cease existing and become C, the journey from A to B could never be repeated. Were A & B to literally disappear assuming that was all there is, then there is nothing. If one considers that the act of violation in relation to a domino affect, then there is no need for the violator because the chain of events has already become manifest by the original violation. Take the bible for example; it was once distorted, then at the hands of another distorted again, and so on and so on. The original distortion has been impacted down the line, but the original violator is not necessary to continue the distortion. In the case of the chained net, a weakness in one area creates pressure on another, and the net requires mending to alleviate the stress on the pressured area. You can remove the damaged chain but it will not be the same net, it can never again be the same. This same principle can be applied to tsunamis, or to a murderer, the pressure is of vast difference but each is consequential to prior action and its affect. Project seal, the tsunami bombs, what affect did they have on the pacific plate, we do not know? But if we consider all in relation to relativity then I speculate there was an affect. The choice of our reality is ours alone and if one believes in God, there is accountability for actions. Even if one does not believe in God or accountability per se, the onus of relativity still exists. To disregard that relativity would be reducing ones own existence to that of no meaning or irrelevance. In essence that denies ones actions as being a part of the broader existence, and if such were the case, I wouldn’t be here. If I don’t accept my role in that I am kidding myself, and if I don’t like it then I might as well stop the world and get off. It is for this reason that I believe, if we encourage goodness, if we encourage respect and regard for life, if we honour what we have, then we have a different potential, than what we would have if we continue to undervalue existence as we do. That is my ideology in relation to existence, chance and our relativity to it, by our very actions and purely by existing. Where God as creator sits in this, I do not stipulate my personal opinion, because my views on that are fairly contradictory to the mainstream of anything.Shaz

This is where I fall by the wayside a little bit. Sounds awesome. I would completely go along with other demensions. Christians, or whoever God has given those gifts to, experience views from other demensions from time to time. I had a vision of the tidal wave before it happened, and in my vision I saw the earth. It was a globe, but I could see the whole thing, and all the countries. I also know someone else that saw the earth in the same manor in a vision. To me our thought processes could possibly exist in the 4th demension, which would explain why we can see the past and the future.
This is all opinion though, take it for what its worth. Your right. Yea, or maybe God, angels, and demons are poking there little heads in and out of our demension. (It is at this point that you now think I'm crazy....) But I never would have thought like this before I found God.What you say it slightly contradicting. Your saying that there are determining factors from other demensions which are imeasurable, that determine things that happen in our demension. This does not make it not predetermined. It just makes it imeasurable. Then science will label it as random, or come up with a theory to try and explain it.Science never believes in the supernatural, but maybe this is it's first glimpse of it.I am not saying here that we will ever get a grasp on being able to measure everything, because that seems unlikely. That does not mean every thing is not predetermined.Butterflies do cause typhoons
At least at some level, or maybe all levels, who knows. Everyones viewpoint is limited. That doesn't make one more correct than another, for the one who knows more, might wind up back where he started.
I am not saying that the rest of life cannot make decsions, but it is possible. I think I mentioned that.So if free will doesn't exist, and nothing is predetermined, whats left? Starting to sound cold and dark out there.You feel like you have no control over your life? Because thats what your saying. Why even care about anything if you are going to feel this way. Why would we have a responsibility to do anything that is right?
I don't think God wants you to feel this way. He created us to be little lords, buddies of God. He greated you for greatness. All we have to do is answer the call. Thats fine, I accept that. Either way you want to describe it, humans worship God, and that makes us different. I wasn't saying it from a stand point that God's existance is fact, no matter what I believe.Besides, I think all of creation worships God, so I was probably wrong in pointing that out. If that is true, then we are the only ones who do not worship God.Don't know the answer to this one, but are we the only species that commits suicide? If your father commits sin (sin by definition) and abuses his body with alcohol. Those traits are carried over to you.
Isn't that simple? I used to walk around saying we are so ignorant if we think that we are the only life forms in the universe.Now I am saying that we just might be ignorant to think that we aren't.Have you heard of the recent discovery of where all those mysterious gamma ray pulses are coming from? It would seem the universe just got a whole lot smaller.

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Have you heard of the recent discovery of where all those mysterious gamma ray pulses are coming from? it would seem the universe just got a whole lot smaller.

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I'm not sure what you mean by recent - they have been under examination for about 30 years or so. Why does this lead you to conclude that the universe "just got a whole lot smaller"? The last time I checked, data from the BATSE experiment had suggested that they are not in our galaxy.Do you know any different?