About that Boat - Noah's Ark

I'm interested in a discussion about the Ark itself, not it's cargo or human crew. For this discussion, I'm using the smaller definition of a cubit, the Egyptian short cubit of roughly 18 inches. That makes the Ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.So, how do you build a boat to those dimensions when no wooden boat before or since has come close to that size?Here are some concerns that have shaped my thinking.* Successful maritime merchants discovered long ago the economics of size. The bigger the boat, the more cargo you can carry and the more money you can make in one trip. However, when a wooden hull reached somewhere around 250-300 feet in length, marine architects ran into the "hogback" problem. The bow and stern sagged without massive longitudinal (bow-to-stern) structural bracing. Without it, the hull simply split under it's own weight. And this is using keel and rib construction. Greater hull length had to await the advent of iron and steel construction.* It has been suggested that the Ark resembled a barge. A large keel was unnecessary because the Ark was not propelled, either by sail or oars or sweeps. That's fine except that the Ark's height of 45 feet, would in itself be a "sail". This large sail area would cause the Ark to swing broadside to the wind and yaw (swing back and forth on its turning axis) with no rudder control.* It has been further suggested that a barge design is capsize-proof.
You don't have to capsize to sink. Let's say that the load water line on the Ark was 1/3 it's height. That makes for 30 feet of freeboard. What happens when a 40 foot wave encounters a 30 foot hull? Or a 50 foot wave? Or a 60 foot wave? The Global Flood was not a summer shower. It was a violent event.I don't care about the Ark did / did not happen angle. I'm simply interested in discussions of the practical feasibility of such a craft. If you believe it happened, so be it. If not, then "pretend" for a while.This is my first post, so don't be kind, be honest.(:raig Miller

Fascinating John.Giving the Chinese the benefit of doubt about the size of their ships, their vessels were still controlled craft with standing and running rigging, masts, sails and a RUDDER.Call me Euro-centric, but I have trouble believing that the Chinese overcame the hogback problem of large wooden ships 400 years before the Europeans NEVER did. I can picture a Chinese junk towing other junks or barges. I can even picture them rafted together. I guess I need more convincing.(:raig

Well, I'm getting closer.Here's Great RepublicShe was 325 x 53 x 40 and was cross-braced with iron.Still have to find something build completely out of wood, bracing and all.Pity about the Chinese and the New World, nos482. We could have had Chinese take-out several hundred years earlier. But then what would the Colonial Boston rebels have dumped into Boston harbor?(:raig

John,I followed your Google suggestion and found 4 sites giving the length of the largest Chinese ships as 400, 475, 600 and 444 feet respectively. *sigh*But I'll concede that they were bigger than European ships.(:raig

Hi Allenroyboy,One year later, the topic is still alive. Amazing. So to continue, you said..."Big waves are not a problem so long as the Ark was designed to handle waves of the same length as the ship."So, Noah and his sons were naval architects. They knew from experience between goat and sheep herding and farming what type of waves they would encounter on an ocean they had never seen. But their expertise in calculus, trig, geometry and algebra easily overcame their misgivings about such a huge undertaking. They most likely used their irrigation ditches as model boat basins to test their theories between spring planting and fall harvesting. They also knew ahead of time exactly what their load factors on the ark would be, the type and quantity of provisions needed and exactly who or what was going to show up.Not only is there a problem of comparing 19th century wooden vessels with those built 5000 years ago, there is a HUGE problem with applying 21st century logic and thinking to people who lived 5000 years ago.BTW, Allenroyboy. I would venture to guess that you have never been on the open ocean in a storm. Try it sometime. Join the Navy and sit out in the Pacific during typhoon season. Watch what 40-50-60 foot waves do to your ship and everyone and everthing inside. More fun than the greatest roller coaster ever built and a 1000 times more lethal. Can you say, "so frightened I shit my pants"? Now apply that to every creature on the ark; pants, skirts or fur.(:raig

Hi again, AllenroyboyPut aside your textbook calculations for a moment. Let's talk seamanship. First of all, that model wave tank you mentioned is just that. WAVES. Not wind. There is no way to scale wind forces on a model in a tank. The primary purpose of a wave tank is to measure the drag of various hull designs through the water. It may be as you stated that a barge shape will turn toward the waves, but let's add the wind dimension and see what happens.Remember that wild ride you had on HMS Warrick Castle as a lad? It's just as you described, the captain was driving the ship THROUGH the storm. That means head-to-wind, or more properly "shoulder to the wind". He kept the bow at about 10-30% to the wave direction to shoulder his way through the waves. It means a good helmsman (rudder) and horsepower to overcome the wind and wave tendency to shove the ship broadside.Now, let's look at Captain Noah. A double ended barge with no means of propulsion and no rudder or sweep (oar attached to the side for steering). At least, no mention of it. So, let's start with the bow (pick an end, either end) into the wind. All exposed superstructure above the waterline will act as a sail. At some point, the bow will be shoved to one side or the other by wave action. The wind will then act on the superstruture on the windward side and start swinging the ark the other way. Inertia will carry the stern around through the direction of the wind to the other side. That's yaw. The stern swings back and forth. That's one consequence of a vessel not in control.The other more serious consequence is that once the bow swings to one side, wind and inertia will swing the whole ark broadside to the wind and waves. The whole vessel gets pushed downwind and sideways. No ship captain in his right mind would allow himself to be put in that position. Since the ship is moving sideways, it's width then becomes it length. You then have a very wide 50 foot vessel at the mercy of the storm. That's when cargo starts to shift, people and animals tumble uncontrollably and sever structural damage occurs.And since we're talking a double ended barge here, then the bow becomes the stern and vise versa while the ark "spins" it's way across the water. Every conceivable stress will be applied to the ark from every direction at some point or another. Ships just aren't designed to take that kind of abuse.Don't forget, there ARE tugs with barges in tow that make there way across the ocean. And what happens when they hit foul weather? HEAD INTO THE WIND. Under power. Under control. Every time. That's how you reach your destination alive.BTW- If you take the 2 animal per "kind" rule and just ONE female dies during the storm, guess what happens to the rest of the "kind"?"ATTENTION CREW. Please turn in you prayer books to the Burial at Sea section. Oh wait, we'll just feed her to the lions. Never mind. Carry on."(:raig

Critical calculations missing!In none of the dialog offered so far are there ANY calculations as to the strength of wood, any wood, after it has aged for 100+ years, waiting to be assembled into a boat.Either you collect all the wood first so that it ages (and rots and splinters and cracks) evenly before you build the boat,-- OR --You collect the wood as parts are needed so that you combine really OLD wood with fresh green wood from the forest and try to combine them into a warp-free, water tight, flexible vessel.Has anyone ever tried to work with wood that's been exposed to the elements for 100 years? I don't think Thompson's Water Seal was on the market yet.(:raig

I second John's sentiments, allenroyboy.Question: How do you pump several million cubic miles of water onto the surface of the planet and maintain New York Central Park boating conditions?Answer: You don't.The only way you could possibly have no wind and flat seas is to have ZERO temperature / pressure gradient differences on a global scale and at all elevations, both above and below the water surface, 24 hours a day.And even conceding a gentle summer shower that covers the earth, I would love to see the model of what lunar tides would be like with no land to impede the tidal surge as it races around the globe twice a day.(:raig

Something's missing in this whole Ark constuction debate.Okay, let's assume for a moment that the Ark WAS built. So what did you have?The most successful wooden vessel ever built. It saved mankind, it saved the animals. It was designed by God and built and crewed by God's chosen family. And then they forgot all about it?The Noahs of Ararat forgot how they built it? They couldn't remember a single detail of so successful a construction technique that it was not copied by successive seafaring nations? All the wooden vessels that followed had to be designed from scratch because Noah's children wouldn't divulge their shipbulding methods at any price?No one bothered to "take the lines" off the Ark to duplicate it's design for future ocean voyages? Even to scale it down as a river barge?Success is copied. Failure is not. No one copied the most successful vessel of all time for commercial purposes? It's carrying capacity alone would have returned a fantastic profit for the investors. It was a Godly design. How could you fail? You mean God didn't bless some of Noah's children as shipbuilders to carry the message of God's power in the most "in-your-face" vessel imaginable?That's what I call "missing the boat."(:raig

While all the controversy is raging about the Biblical Ark, don't forget about that other contender for the Trans Atlantic Blue Riband, entered into the contest from the Sumerians. Obviously, God did not favor the Sumerian Ark because those guys were having WAY too much fun building it. I'm sure the ship building specs included a wine cellar. Now, that's my kind of cruise ship.(:raig

So we have the Sumerians to thank for starting all the folklore about drunken sailors. Sweet. Noah was such a damn tea totaller.(:raig

Okay Paul, I'll concede the point. At least Noah waited to hit the beach before he got sloshed. Although, waiting for the vines to grow took a heck of a lot of discipline.(:raig

I can take an old hollow log, seal the ends and, guess what? I've got a "model" of the Titanic. Or I can go down to my neighborhood undertaker, get a wooden coffin, seal the lid and, presto! I've got a "model" of the QE2.A boat that is 30 x 5 x 3 is...guest what? A boat that is 30x5x3. It's not a model of anything. You can scale the size of a boat and call it a model, but you can't scale the ocean. Wave action against a 30 foot hull is not the same as against a hull that is 300 or 400 or 500 feet long. The stresses are entirely different. Read the first few pages at the beginning of this topic to bring yourself up to speed, NotSoBlind.BTW - If I were a predator just getting off the Ark, I sure as heck wouldn't walk all the way back to Africa to get a meal. I'd just pounce on the first zebra or antelope coming out the door. And if Noah got in the way, I'd bite his ass, too.(:raig

Craig Miller here...I started this thread in Sept. 2002 and I've been astounded by it's longevity.To all who have participated, thank you. It's been a delightful way of getting educated to other points of view. But after thoughtful consideration, I'm still of the opinion that Common Sense remains on the endangered species list.So, keep up the Good Fight. For those who are of the opinion that God created "kinds" of animals, please consider that we already have parrots. We don't need humans acting like them.THINK, DAMMIT! Your head is more than a hanger for Ipod earphones.Regards,(:raig Miller