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Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is Science? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
The definition I've always liked for science is:
a system of acquiring knowledge based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism. The unit of knowledge is the theory, which is a hypothesis that is supported by a sufficient standard of evidence.
The only vague concept in there would be "sufficient evidence," but just saying the main unit of knowledge is the hypothesis that is supported by evidence would be fine as well. Science is based on the philosophy that nothing can be proven, only supported by evidence. It is also centered around falsification, i.e., only hypothesises that are falsifiable are considered scientific. Some may also include Occam's Razor in the philosophy of science. Ok, so far so good. The question I have is this: Are only theories considered science? This question is directed at the data/model idea of science. Theories are the models which explain phenomena (data). But, is the data itself considered science? For instance, tonight of the O'Reilly Factor, Bill said that not all of science is incomplete. He gave his example, "There are 24 hours in the day" (please no nitpicking about the precise length of the day). Is that science, or simply data? And is the data science? Is it science when I say, "The amoeba Naegleria gruberi loses motility when it is in an environment with the drug ML-7." A related question would be: Where is the data/model dichotomy? An example would be in astronomy. It was hypothesized that the moon revolves around the earth. This was slowly supported by more and more evidence until it became a theory. Nowadays, though, we have satellites that can actually see the earth/moon pair, and monitor their movements. So, is this just a very well supported theory, or is it a fact (data). This message has been edited by JustinCy, 01-19-2005 00:49 AM
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
quote:Maybe I should of been more clear about my conception of science. It is the system which I spoke of, but it is also the knowledge (theory) which the system produces. More precisely, I would call it "scientific knowledge," but in modern vernacular it would be considered just "science." And remember, this is just my definition. I'm not sure it is all encompassing. The question is, then, "is making an observation or taking a measurement "science" or "scientific knowledge""? Is saying, "there are 24 hours in a day" or "there are four seasons at a certain latitude" science? Or is the science the broader explanatory framework which explains the 24 hours as due to the spin of the earth and the seasons as the result of the tilt of the axis? What should the Biology Professor of said when Bill O'Reilly stated, "Not all science is incomplete. For instance, there are 24 hours in a day and four seasons in the year." It would sound absurd to say, "those are only scientific theories, which are incomplete." But would it be equally absurd to say, "That is not science."
quote:I look at it in a slightly different fashion. I don't see "fact" and "theory" as rungs on a latter, with fact being at the top. I don't think anybody sees it that way in the scientific community. A theory is an explanatory framework for the facts. A fact is, if I may borrow from Stephen Jay Gould, a statement confirmed to such a high degree that it would be perverse to withhold transient approval. But this even falls short, because a theory can be used as a model to explain other theories, not just facts. The reason evolution is called "fact" and "theory" is because many people, including myself, believe that it's been confirmed to a very high degree that evolution has occured throughout history. The theory comes in the mechanism through which this evolutionary change has occured, i.e., natural selection. I think my main point of confusion is the fact/theory dichotomy. Are they on the same ladder, with fact on top? I never thought so. But what about the earth/moon example. Has the theory turned into a fact? Is data itself science? Is all of science incomplete? I know there are several scientists on this site, so hopefully you guys can clarify my misconceptions. This message has been edited by JustinCy, 01-19-2005 17:06 AM
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
quote:Hmmm...I do like this a lot better than my definition. quote:So the observation in and of itself is not scientific, in the sense that it is knowledge not derived from the scientific method. Couldn't the observation flow from the scientific method though? The hypothesis being, "There are 24 hours in a day." It's falsifiable, and can therefore be tested. This is related to the astronomy question. Is the earth/moon system a fact or a supported hypothesis?
quote:According to Gould in his essay, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
I suppose this doesn't take anything away from your point though. Facts are statements that can be objectively verified. Seems reasonable to me. But, the scientific method is used to support hypothesises. According to standard conceptions of science, a hypothesis cannot turn into a fact. From your definition of a fact, it seems it can. Did that observation that the moon orbits around the earth (actually the earth/moon center of mass) start off as a theory and turn into a fact when it was observed by satellites?
quote:This does help, and is usually how I explain science, but I always fall into murky waters when I begin asking myself, "Is there objective truth in science, or should everything be seen in terms of hypothesis/theory? Is fact only used when a hypothesis is supported by a extremely convincing evidence?" I never liked to think of fact and theory as rungs on the "truth ladder," but I keep coming back to that. For instance, in your example about the crime scene, what if we found a security camera that caught the accused in the act. Does that merely support the hypothesis that he did it, or is that objective fact that he did it?
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
That does clarify things a lot. Would it be accurate to say that "facts" in science are intersubjective statements, and theories are the frameworks which tie these facts together beyond a reasonable doubt?
So just to rap things up, do you think it's possible for a theory to become a fact if the evidence is so concrete it can be considered intersubjective?
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
quote:Well, I think I see it the same way. I don't necessarily think a fact and theory are on different parts of a wall, but that is often how it is presented. For instance, if you read Gould's article "Evolution as Fact and Theory" at Top Cash Earning Games in India 2022 | Best Online Games to earn real money he does draw a dichotomy between the two. A matter of fact, that is almost the exclusive defense against the creationist statement, "Evolution is just a theory." That is, evolutionists say that a theory is all it (natural selection and/or evolution) ever could be since a theory is the pinnacle of scientific knowledge. But if they truly are on the same continuum of certainty, then that statement would be wrong, correct? And that would be a criticism, since it is not a fact. The way I see it now is that a theory is a framework for explaining facts, but a theory could potentially become a fact if the evidence is extremely convincing that it could be considered intersubjective. But not all theories have this luxury, and for them a theory is the pinnacle of that idea. But how much evidence before it is considered intersubjective? Direct observation of the phenomena in question perhaps?
quote:This is semantics of course, but I think it is important when discussing what should be considered science or not. Of course, ID isn't science, but is an observation science? I remember having a discussion with a fellow student in a History and Philosophy of Science course about whether some Native American's used science. He pointed out that they recognized that some roots helped mitigate physical pain. I said that was merely an observation, and an observation itself is not science. I'm not actually sure how the conversation ended, but no conclusions were made. So I'm trying to see what others think about his subject. Was Bill O'Reilly correct in his rebuttal against the Biology Professor when he said, "That's not true. Not all science is incomplete. For instance, there are 24 hours in a day and 4 seasons in a year [at a certain latitude]." Of course, they were talking about ID and this was all irrelevant, but I still find it interesting.
quote:Which is the root of the problem. Is the Germ Theory of Disease a theory or a fact? According the definitions I was using, I would say it is both. According to you, though, I'd assume you would call it simply a fact. Just to clarify, do you think an observation is science? And do you think theory and fact are on the same continuum of certainty?
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4844 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
quote:Yeah, I should of realized that was a rhetorical question, and I obviously read it wrong. quote:How about if we use LM's definition, which I think I prefer. Science is the knowledge gained from the Scientific Method. Of course, and observation isn't the scientific method, but could it flow from it, although it might not in practice? For instance, if I want to know how long my desk is, I measure it. But in principal, couldn't I hypothesize it's length and then measure it? Then it can be supported or rejected. If it is supported, it would be a theory, but it is also intersubjective in the sense that everybody would get the same answer (hopefully). I would then call it a fact. Would this make sense. Every well supported hypothesis starts off as a theory and a theory could potentially also be considered a fact, but in some instances a theory is the pinnacle of scientific knowledge. A fact would be an intersubjective observation. The Germ Theory of Disease started off as a theory. We now have the technology to actually observe microbes in our bodies, and can monitor their effects of our biochemical pathways. It's a theory and a fact, since it can be observed intersubjectively.
quote:Good question. I'd have to think about that some more. Has anybody here ever read Kuhn or Poppers books about the philosophy of science? If so, do they discuss anything relevant to this conversation. This message has been edited by JustinC, 01-20-2005 23:56 AM
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