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Author Topic:   Distinguishing Baramins
derwood
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 60 of 80 (169516)
12-17-2004 4:50 PM


baraminology is crap pseudoscience
I've written on this before:
When I was a graduate student working on molecular phylogenetics, I discovered a series of articles in the Creationist peer-reviewed literature * dealing with the same subject.
The authors of these articles were applying computer algorithms to molecular data to determine the relationships between creatures that descended form the ‘kinds’ that were Created and were later allowed to live on the ark.
These and other papers lay out the creationist version of systematics, called Baraminology (or Discontinuity Systematics), which utilize standard computer programs and reproducible analyses using molecular data. These ‘baraminologists’ have set up an entire field of study, complete with its own bible-based terminology and concepts.
The first paper, “A Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of the Testudine Apobaramin,” 1997, DA Robinson, CRSQ 33:4 p. 262-272, examines the relationships between turtles, and establishes or at least lays out some important criteria for establishing affinity of species (baramina) – patterns of mutation bias, gaps between ingroup and outgroups, topological congruence of cladograms using differing parameters and analyses, and strong bootstrap support for the arrangements. The author was able to determine using these methods – which are essentially the same as those used by systematists – that all turtles are related via descent form a created kind, but could not resolve lower-level relationships.
The third paper dealt with cat phylogeny, and just expande don earlier ‘proof of concept’ papers.
But the second paper was of great interest to me.
“A Quantitative Approach to Baraminology With Examples from the Catarrhine Primates,” 1998, D. Ashley Robinson and David P. Cavanaugh, CRSQ 34:4 p. 196-208, was the very subject I was working on.
Much of the paper consists of quoting/referring to Scripture, which is odd for a scientific paper but not, I assume, for a scientific paper premised on the supernaturalistic metaphysic, and outlining their justification for their “baraminic distance” criterion. This takes up about the first 4 pages. The baraminic distance is essentially equivalent to the materialistic genetic distance measure, it is just called something else.
Those pages are, save for the references to Scripture, well written and exhibit a great deal of thought. The paper gets interesting, however, when we get to the Materials and Methods section on p. 201. The title of the paper and several sentences in the introductory portion indicate that the interest here is in the Old World monkeys, not the human-ape question. Indeed, they discount that question altogether:
“Since Scriptures clearly imply that humans were specially created (Genesis 1:26-272:7, 22), and thus phylogenetically distinct from other organisms, we utilize the human-nonhuman primate relationship as a control.”
This will be of interest later.
Their data consisted of 12s rRNA gene sequences, chromosomal characters, morphological characters, and ecological characters. The data were analyzed individually and as a total evidence dataset using standard phylogenetic analysis software.
It is the results and discussion in which the metaphysic of supernaturalism comes into play.
For those of you that do not know, when you set up a data matrix for analysis you utilize what is called an outgroup – a taxon that is not closely related to the group under study – for use as a ‘yardstick’ of sorts. For example, when analyzing primates you might use rabbit as an outgroup. Interestingly, as quoted above, the baraminologists use human as the outgroup in their analyses.
Outgroups must be designated prior to running the analysis, or the results will appear strange. If you designate the wrong taxon as the outgroup, your results will be strange indeed (you can, of course, run analyses without an outgroup, but these analyses were not utilized by the baraminologists).
So, when the baraminologists ran neighbor joining analyses on the data, they used human as the outgroup. NJ methods assume a constant rate of evolution, which is not indicated by either fossil or molecular evidence and so has fallen out of favor. Though they do not specifically state that they designated human as outgroup, this is what must have happened. This is because the order of the taxa in the dataset can influence the arrangement produced in NJ analyses. For example, I analyzed one of my datasets and I got an arrangement similar to the one seen in the CRSQ paper. Human is first in that dataset, so I cut and pasted it last, re-ran the analysis, and Human got stuck somewhere in the middle of the cluster (however, when I ran a bootstrap analysis, human grouped with chimp). However, when I designated a new world monkey as outgroup, I got the ‘accepted’ arrangement – human + chimp. Making human the outgroup produces an arrangement similar to the one in the CRSQ paper – NJ analyses by default use the first taxon as the outgroup unless designated otherwise.
And what follows from that is the production of weakly supported topologies, since they tried to force the data to conform to a ‘non-natural’ topology. The node linking chimps and gorillas was supported with only 53% bootstrap support. That is fairly low. In a paper not constrained by the antimaterialism metaphysic, in which human is not the outgroup, chimps join gorilla with 96-100% support, depending on the data used. Forcing the data to fit a preconceived notion based on a metaphysic produces statistically significant error.
They mention in the abstract “We have found that baraminic distances based on hemoglobin amino acid sequences, 12S-rRNA sequences, and chromosomal data were largely ineffective for identifying the Human holobaramin. Baraminic distances based on ecological and morphological characters, however, were quite reliable for distinguishing humans from nonhuman primates.”
The description of the morphological analysis sounds impressive – 43 characters. The morphological characters, however, I believe, were specifically selected to produce the desired results. Why do I say this? Because this paper:
Mol Phylogenet Evol. 1996 Feb; 5(1): 102-54. Primate phylogeny: morphological vs. molecular results. Shoshani J, Groves CP, Simons EL, Gunnell GF.
Was known to the authors**. It contained an analysis of not 43 characters, but 264, and this analysis grouped human with chimp.
The other data, ecological data, is the nmost subjective and should produce no surprise when it was this data that provided the baraminologists their ‘strongest evidence. For a separate human baramin. And what were some of these data? Things like percent foliage in diet, monogamy, population group size and density, home range size, etc. It looks to me like these data too were chosen to produce a desired outcome, for what exactly does “monogamy” have to do with descent?
Indeed, the authors state in their Discussion section:
“Character selection, not the method of analysis, is expected to be the primary factor affecting baraminic hypotheses. False conclusions can be reached unless baraminically informative data has been sampled. Since we have no a priori knowledge regarding which characters are more reliable for identifying holobaramins, it is important to evaluate the reliability of a wide variety of biological data for inferring baraminic relationships.”
And later:
“it is interesting to note that the ecological and morphological criteria were the most adept at distinguishing humans and the most highly correlated, indicating that the datasets in the strongest agreement were the most reliable.”
Yes, that is interesting – the most subjective and limited criteria are the most reliable for giving the creationist the arrangement they want…
That is, they have to pick data that give them the results they want – those that conform to Scripture.
Creationism’s metaphysic in action…
What I did not mention is this, from the section on selecting characters:
“With the exception of the Scriptural criterion no single data set is sufficient to define the holobaramin.”
Translation: Scripture gives us the answers, we need to find the data that will conform to these answers.
The ‘superior’ metaphysic in action.
* I had contacted the authors of this paper in 1999 asking for reprints and neither replied to my requests. I had to buy the issues form CRSQ. Later, after reading in the paper that the data sets were available from the authors on request, I sent an IM to DA Robinson while online one day. First he pretended not to know what I was talking about. After he acknowledged co-authoring the paper, he said something that astounded me – he said that he didn’t think the data sets even existed anymore!
Creationist metaphysic in action.
So, objective reader – is this metaphysic superior? Is this the best way to engage in scientific pursuits – to seek the TRUE answers in Scripture then try to shoe-horn data to fit those ‘answers’?
Sadly, many seem to insist that the answer is yes. No wonder these folks do not wish to discuss science…
** During my IM chat with one of the baraminologists, I was asked if I knew the lead author of that paper. Indeed I did - we had tossed around the idea of doing a project together and I had helped him with some of the analyses. This was before I had even mentioned the paper in question - the baraminologist was fishing to see if I would be able to know the jiug was up. that is my interpretation, anyway...

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Brad McFall, posted 12-17-2004 4:58 PM derwood has not replied
 Message 62 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2005 3:38 AM derwood has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 64 of 80 (174054)
01-05-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Brad McFall
01-03-2005 11:59 AM


Re: baraminology is crap pseudoscience
Controls are nice and a good idea when used appropriately.
However, declaring Scripture to be a good source of scientific control is not only idiotic, it is intellectually fraudulent in my opinion.
Relying on this criterion forces the creationist to concoct ad hoc just-so stories every time a pair of baramina that are 'known' to be related have a larger baraminic distance than do humans and chimps.
Standard creationist pseudoscience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Brad McFall, posted 01-03-2005 11:59 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Brad McFall, posted 01-12-2005 11:11 AM derwood has replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 66 of 80 (176929)
01-14-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Brad McFall
01-12-2005 11:11 AM


Re: baraminology is crap pseudoscience
Well, I once decraled that I would not read, much less respond, to Brad's often bizarre posts, but what the heck - I am really bored.
quote:
Control of SCIENCE and control of scientists are two different things. I suggested scripture was a means to organize the discrete community of discontinuous thinkers of the morphospace. I have reached the conclusion that MODERN 1900 science FAILED to incorporate biology into it's DYNAMICS. Control of the difference of process and system IS NEEDED. I was not suggesting that this change MUST occurr through reorganization of creationist curricula as I wouldagree that a minority group of scientists ought never to dictate for all and this was not how I would have thought the change would occurr.
The above is utterly incomprehensible and those few segments that I could decipher were irrelevent.
The issue was using Scripture as a source of experimental control.
What FAILING to incorporate bioogy into science's DYNAMICS has to do with that is a mystery.
quote:
If baraminologists can suggest algortithms that novelly combine morphospace in a posteriori ways that better grade up this failure then I dont think it matters should the people doing the work are those who go to Church or not.
It has nothing to do with going to church, as you should have understood. It has to do with using the bible as the ultimate arbiter of science. It is about using the bible as a framework within which all scientific endeavors must fit, and whose experiments must all support a precopnceived conclusion.
If you think that is somehow better than what actual scientists do, then you are as wacky as I have thought all along.
quote:
Actually, had I myself not be failed by the current pedagogic system I would have thought that science was compentant itself to DO THE WORK!
I'm noit sure the failure was pedagogical...
quote:
The reliance on non-linear and less non-equilibrium modes of thought have caused the problem that by itself SHOULD NOT have failed a student such as myself.
Wel, aren't you special? Your argument seems to be against the educational system. As such, what on earth are you doing defending pseudoscience?
quote:
That it did only point the fact that the scientists but no the science needs change. The problem is with the scientists at the top of the "food chain", the elite, whom every one HAS to read etc.
Like whom?
Newton? Einstein? Koch?
Those bad, bad people?
quote:
Imagine if I WAS THE elite!
Well, let's see....
Nobody would be able to understand a thing...
Writing would be incompresenhible gibberish, writen in stream-of-consciousness babble...
Sounds great!
quote:
Someday I will have to take Carl Zimmer to task for wasting THIS generation with "contradictions" over a or the GOD gene.
Please do. I'm sure all will be transfixed by your astute observations.
quote:
According to Gladyshev the sense I recognize and I could get Z's words to mirror, FIND NO CONTRADICTION. Yes DETERMINING the equilibrium in a potentially vicariant situation is more work than fiding a computer bug but I find that chance evolution FAILED and should this not be rectified with supramolecular chemistry etc nanotechnology will not reveal its errors until there is a systemic ecological catastrophe, in addition to the discussion of global warming.
Computer bug... chance evolution fails... global warming..
Riiight! I see it all clearly now!
If you are so smart, why then did you refer to "chance evolution"?
quote:
Besides, if creationists are to make these advances, then they will be for everyone, regardless. I had hoped that people here would not be as pesimistic as they are for thier is plenty of positive work that can be done.
I sincerely doubt that creationmists wioll be making any advaces anywhere. Relying on the bible as their arbiter of scientific truth hasd all but guaranteed that.
quote:
I am not in a place to work in the lineage response specifically. The last time I gave this thought some attention I was working up Croizat's notion of Occam's Razor and his chapter on Panbiogeography and Catholocism.
Wow. Sounds groundbreaking.
quote:
The analysis I have done would enable me to make some comments but I do not have all of my materials during this winter break. You however need the synthesis and this depends ON THE ACTUAL biogeographic material in the literature as well. I have not done a through enough literature search of that.
Synthesis of what again?
Catholocism and something? Why on earth would anyone need that?
Are you on something?
quote:
If you are serious
NO ONE HAS BEEN THIS SERIOUS ABOUT THE CREATIONIST INTEREST I GIVE SO FAR HERE
I amnot the least bit interewsted in your inane ramblings supporting creationmist pseudoscience and fraud.
quote:
please append ONE further post indicating that you will more than follow in the mode of ALL other posters to me here and that you will follow up as I continue with THAT. That specifically COULD involve discussions of computer programs used to determine various distances but first we must air ALL the theoretical possibilites. If you are only interested in still saying the word "Crap" dont bother.
Well, baraminology IS crap, so I don't know what exactly you think you can offer. It appears that what you want to discuss really has no relevance to it.
quote:
I am suggesting that EVOLUTIONISTS have cashed in their own TRUE historical uncertainty for ad hoc, arbitary, AND capricious faiiling of students.
Failing of students? What the hell are you talking about?
quote:
That is against the law.
What is?
quote:
That is my claim it is prior to discussion to truth claims IN science for if there are no scientists there can be no science and if your position does not afford me BEING one, then you are not in the position to let EvC talk substitute.
What, YOU being a scientist?
Well, at the very least, a scientist needs to be able to communicate effectively, at least to his or her peers. I cannot decipher one united train of thought in your posts. I have no idea what your position is. I have no idea what do and do not support (except for your silly reference to 'chance evolution').
If you cannot get your points across is an understandable way, then what good are you?
quote:
That would be a mistake and false on your part, as I have already, used, EVC to advance Science, and I can show that it has more value than all of Zimmer's ENGLISH combined, whether you recognize it or not.
I have no clue what you are talking about.
quote:
If Baramin's go the way of phlogiston that is ok with me, but my INTUITION, the likes of which Russel denied to futher/future science by not taking Cantor's marginal notes seriously (or my many posts here for example), exists, and should I die, I only hope I am able to dismeniate the discipline that I have used to achieve what I KNOW.
What DO you know?
quote:
We do not look at organisms as wet enough. There is too much machine in the man and not enough machinations. Baramins provide a further division of the soma so that we can get more water into view.
What the fuck are you talking about? Wet? Water?
quote:
Control of SCIENCE and control of scientists are two different things.
Who said anything about control? Why, YOU DID.
quote:
I suggested scripture was a means to organize the discrete community of discontinuous thinkers of the morphospace. I have reached the conclusion that MODERN 1900 science FAILED to incorporate biology into it's DYNAMICS. Control of the difference of process and system IS NEEDED. I was not suggesting that this change MUST occurr through reorganization of creationist curricula as I wouldagree that a minority group of scientists ought never to dictate for all and this was not how I would have thought the change would occurr. If baraminologists can suggest algortithms that novelly combine morphospace in a posteriori ways that better grade up this failure then I dont think it matters should the people doing the work are those who go to Church or not. Actually, had I myself not be failed by the current pedagogic system
I know, you already wrote all this above.
quote:
I would have thought that science was compentant itself to DO THE WORK! The reliance on non-linear and less non-equilibrium modes of thought have caused the problem that by itself SHOULD NOT have failed a student such as myself. That it did only point the fact that the scientists but no the science needs change.
You also wrote all of this before, too. Up your dosage maybe?
quote:
The problem is with the scientists at the top of the "food chain", the elite, whom every one HAS to read etc. Imagine if I WAS THE elite! Someday I will have to take Carl Zimmer to task for wasting THIS generation with "contradictions" over a or the GOD gene. According to Gladyshev the sense I recognize and I could get Z's words to mirror, FIND NO CONTRADICTION. Yes DETERMINING the equilibrium in a potentially vicariant situation is more work than fiding a computer bug but I find that chance evolution FAILED and should this not be rectified with supramolecular chemistry etc nanotechnology will not reveal its errors until there is a systemic ecological catastrophe, in addition to the discussion of global warming. Besides, if creationists are to make these advances, then they will be for everyone, regardless. I had hoped that people here would not be as pesimistic as they are for thier is plenty of positive work that can be done.
I am not in a place to work in the lineage response specifically. The last time I gave this thought some attention I was working up Croizat's notion of Occam's Razor and his chapter on Panbiogeography and Catholocism. The analysis I have done would enable me to make some comments but I do not have all of my materials during this winter break. You however need the synthesis and this depends ON THE ACTUAL biogeographic material in the literature as well. I have not done a through enough literature search of that. If you are serious
NO ONE HAS BEEN THIS SERIOUS ABOUT THE CREATIONIST INTEREST I GIVE SO FAR HERE
please append ONE further post indicating that you will more than follow in the mode of ALL other posters to me here and that you will follow up as I continue with THAT. That specifically COULD involve discussions of computer programs used to determine various distances but first we must air ALL the theoretical possibilites. If you are only interested in still saying the word "Crap" dont bother.
I am suggesting that EVOLUTIONISTS have cashed in their own TRUE historical uncertainty for ad hoc, arbitary, AND capricious faiiling of students. That is against the law. That is my claim it is prior to discussion to truth claims IN science for if there are no scientists there can be no science and if your position does not afford me BEING one, then you are not in the position to let EvC talk substitute.
That would be a mistake and false on your part, as I have already, used, EVC to advance Science, and I can show that it has more value than all of Zimmer's ENGLISH combined, whether you recognize it or not. If Baramin's go the way of phlogiston that is ok with me, but my INTUITION, the likes of which Russel denied to futher/future science by not taking Cantor's marginal notes seriously (or my many posts here for example), exists, and should I die, I only hope I am able to dismeniate the discipline that I have used to achieve what I KNOW.
We do not look at organisms as wet enough. There is too much machine in the man and not enough machinations. Baramins provide a further division of the soma so that we can get more water into view.
Wow...
Trippindicular, man....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Brad McFall, posted 01-12-2005 11:11 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Brad McFall, posted 01-20-2005 7:04 AM derwood has replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 70 of 80 (179393)
01-21-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brad McFall
01-20-2005 7:04 AM


Re: baraminology is crap pseudoscience
Yes, baraminology is dung pseudoscience.
All of your stream of consciousness protestations cannot change that simple fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brad McFall, posted 01-20-2005 7:04 AM Brad McFall has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-21-2005 6:19 PM derwood has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1901 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 73 of 80 (179789)
01-22-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brad McFall
01-22-2005 6:29 PM


Re: in MORPHOSPACE, no one can hear you MORPHOSCREAM
All I can say is....
Wow....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Brad McFall, posted 01-22-2005 6:29 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Brad McFall, posted 01-23-2005 9:27 AM derwood has not replied

  
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