Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 241 of 948 (179788)
01-22-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by RAZD
01-22-2005 8:25 PM


Re: The Math of the Matter? and a board game!
And yes it is irrelevant what the speed of the light was during the initial phases down until the instant before the first light from the pulse first hits the earth (or even after?)
If the speed of light varies significantly after the first pulse arrives, you have to know how it varies and integrate C(t)dt from the arrival of the first pulse to the arrival of the second pulse. That gives you R.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 8:25 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 9:16 PM JonF has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 242 of 948 (179797)
01-22-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by JonF
01-22-2005 8:36 PM


Re: The Math of the Matter? and a board game!
yep.
as soon as you mentioned that part the (distance) scale fell from my eyes.
I wonder if the instruments were able to detect any variation in the time of the light to travel from different parts of the ring -- that would allow one to correct for orientation of the ring.
I also understand that there is a second phase of this interaction as well (from one of the sites). And I wonder if the heavy element signatures were also detectable in the ring path light.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by JonF, posted 01-22-2005 8:36 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by JonF, posted 01-23-2005 8:02 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 243 of 948 (179829)
01-23-2005 1:38 AM


distance by the 'regular' method?
Does anyone have a reference\information for what the distance to the supernova is\was by the standard red-shift model?
just for comparison?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 01-23-2005 8:03 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 250 by NosyNed, posted 01-23-2005 10:48 AM RAZD has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 948 (179849)
01-23-2005 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by RAZD
01-22-2005 6:43 PM


quote:
: that would have been in the "instantaneous light" period OR the universe since the time instant light ended is still older than 168,000 years
This is an interesting point. I have to mull it over for awhile. I think you have something there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 6:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 245 of 948 (179870)
01-23-2005 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by RAZD
01-22-2005 9:16 PM


Re: The Math of the Matter? and a board game!
I wonder if the instruments were able to detect any variation in the time of the light to travel from different parts of the ring -- that would allow one to correct for orientation of the ring.
Yes. The ring is tilted at 43°±3° relative to our line of sight. See Supernova 1987A Refutes 6000 Year Old Universe, which includes several links to original papers on-line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 9:16 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 246 of 948 (179871)
01-23-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by RAZD
01-23-2005 1:38 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
Does anyone have a reference\information for what the distance to the supernova is\was by the standard red-shift model?
You might be interested in Properties of the SN 1987A circumstellar ring and the distance to the Large Magellanic Cloud, published before we saw the ring illuminated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 1:38 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 8:49 AM JonF has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 247 of 948 (179877)
01-23-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by JonF
01-23-2005 8:03 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method for {Sanduleak -69202}}
Good stuff, and very consistent with the distance calculated here, but still not quite what I am looking for.
But, what I want is the pre-nova determined distance to the {progenitor\precurser} star {{Sk -69 202}} or {{Sanduleak -69202}} by the standard red-shift\speed of light model ... so that it can be compared with this independently calculated distance to show that the standard calculation is {viable\validated} and what the (%) error between the two systems is, and whether the possible range for this calculation is inside the possible range for the other (assuming it to be the less accurate method of the two).
Every source I can find seems to have already corrected their distances to this calculated value. Or the numbers are identical and I am missing that information.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 01-23-2005 8:03 AM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 9:22 AM RAZD has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 248 of 948 (179883)
01-23-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by RAZD
01-23-2005 8:49 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method for {Sanduleak -69202}}
The supernova was in the Large Magellanic Cloud, which is in orbit around the Milky Way. The cosmological red shift that you're thinking of doesn't apply here - only to much further-off galaxies that aren't gravitationally bound to us. I've read, long ago, of distances to the LMC based on Cepheid variables, a type of star whose period of variation correlates with brightness. Distance using these was similar to that from 1987A, but as I remember it, there's uncertainty in the Cepheid yardstick arising from the slightly different chemical composition of the LMC relative to our neighborhood.
Added in edit:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9805/9805215.pdf
gives a comparison of a couple of methods with SN1987A, but the results are stated in terms of "distance modulus", something expressed as a brightness. We'll need a real astronomer to help here.....
But the distance moduli are all within each others' error bars, anyway.
Added in another edit:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0010/0010590.pdf
gives several methods, and has all distances coming out within 7% of each other.
This message has been edited by Coragyps, 01-23-2005 09:33 AM
This message has been edited by Coragyps, 01-23-2005 09:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 8:49 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 10:37 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 249 of 948 (179907)
01-23-2005 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Coragyps
01-23-2005 9:22 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method for {Sanduleak -69202}}
Yep, that is what I keep finding. Thanks.
We'll need a real astronomer to help here.....
Maybe I should talk to my brother ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 9:22 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 250 of 948 (179908)
01-23-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by RAZD
01-23-2005 1:38 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
Does anyone have a reference\information for what the distance to the supernova is\was by the standard red-shift model?
just for comparison?
Off the top of my head, I'd say it is way too close to apply this. The local group is gravitationally bound and won't be separating due to expansion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 1:38 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 12:01 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 251 of 948 (179928)
01-23-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by NosyNed
01-23-2005 10:48 AM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
It's okay, I've called in the reinforcements .
My understanding is that there are several methods used to measure distance, each having certain distance specific restrictions.
The first is parallax, either by observations from opposite orientations of earth on its axis (nearest objects) or observations from opposite extremes of the earth orbit around the sun (gets us out into the galaxy neighborhood)
Beyond that is extrapolated from the information base built on the parallax distance and {light\radiation} signatures for the spectrum of objects observed, plus other information that can be deduced.
I thought red shift was used inside our galaxy, to among other things map out where in the 'disk' the objects were (say looking through the center area to what lies on the other side, and using doppler calcs to correct for rotation induced effects.
Beyond out galaxy it appears (from reading all the articles on the LMC (Large Magellan Cloud) looking for how the distance to it is measured) is that the LMC is used to calibrate more distant extrapolations by correlating the {light\radiation} signatures of these objects with their distances and then being able to use that information on other more distant objects.
To do that, we must have a good idea of where the LMC is and have it validated by a number of methods (this SN1987A bit being one of them).
If this system is used to calibrate red shift then there must be red shift information on it, or at least I would think so.
What I am looking for is a way to say "the distance to SN1987A by {speed of light calculations} is {165,000}* ly +/- 5 ly, the distance by this calculation is 168,000 ly +/- 3 ly and thus the speed of light has been consistent (within the margin of error) since the light left SN1987A"
* - where {165,000} is just a number arbitrarily chosen for the example.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by NosyNed, posted 01-23-2005 10:48 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 1:02 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 253 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 1:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 252 of 948 (179934)
01-23-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
01-23-2005 12:01 PM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
RAZD writes:
Do you know of any standard distance for the pre SN1987A {progenitor\precurser} star {{Sk -69 202}} or {{Sanduleak -69202}} ?
Brother by e-mail writes:
Astronomers measure distances using several different sized yardsticks.
You do begin with parallax - the diameter of the earth's orbit as the base of an extremely tall & thin triangle. This works for nearby stars.
Then you start by correlating the Apparent Magnitude against what a similarly composed star might look like at the distance. If the spectral signature is a good match to some of the known nearby stars, then you can make a fairly good estimate of the mass. Once you have the mass, then you can estimate the Absolute Magnitude. Using Absolute/Apparent you get an estimate of the distance.
This works for stars that fall well within a known type of spectral signature, so it isn't useful in general.
Another way is to use eclipsing binaries, like Algol in Perseus. You can get the masses of the pair with the period and angular separation and get a distance that fits all the data. The eclipsing feature allows you to measure brightnesses individually for binaries that appear too close together for our telescopes. A binary that doesn't eclipse doesn't provide enough information to scale the distance well.
So now you can measure distances to clusters in our galaxy and some of them have what are called Cepheid variables. Cepheid variables falls into 2 or 3 kinds, all characterized by a periodic brightening. Each kind has a mass-period relationship that is fairly consistent, if they are solidly within that kind of Cepheid.
Cepheid variables were then detected in the Magellanic clouds and thus the distance to these clouds was well defined. Astronomers found Cepheids in other nearby galaxies and thus those distances could be determined.
However, the further out the particular yardstick you are using, the greater the uncertainty of the measure.
At the long end of the scale, astronomers are using Type Ia Supernovae in super-distant galaxies to fit the redshift data more accurately. These guys are the ones who helped cosmologists to think that the rate of the expansion of the universe has been increasing.
See http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm for a lot of stuff on this whole shebang, so to speak.
Looks like I need to specifically ask on the speed of light issue ... :sigh:
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-30-2005 16:52 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 12:01 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 253 of 948 (179936)
01-23-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
01-23-2005 12:01 PM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
If this system is used to calibrate red shift then there must be red shift information on it, or at least I would think so.
Alas, it's not that easy....
I'm sure there are plenty of red shifts measured for objects in the LMC, but they have nothing to offer as far as distance to the LMC. It's in orbit around us and not receding due to cosmological expansion.
Conversely, though, there is a lot of data on Cepheid and RR Lyrae variables in the LMC that can be compared with data on those same two types of stars in galaxies that are far enough away to exhibit cosmological redshifts - say, in the Virgo Cluster. The links I gave above allude to this, but they are preaching to the choir of astronomers who already know all the basics of such measurement - we need a more popularised treatment here. Whatever the case, my 2nd link claims 7% spread in distances derived from SN1987A and the variable-star methods. That sounds pretty good to me....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 12:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 1:48 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 258 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 4:38 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 948 (179947)
01-23-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Coragyps
01-23-2005 1:10 PM


Re: distance by the 'regular' method?
Conversely, though, there is a lot of data on Cepheid and RR Lyrae variables in the LMC that can be compared with data on those same two types of stars in galaxies that are far enough away to exhibit cosmological redshifts - say, in the Virgo Cluster. ... my 2nd link claims 7% spread in distances derived from SN1987A and the variable-star methods. That sounds pretty good to me....
So the best we can hope for is a link from SN1987A to Cepheid\variable stars and between those and redshift SoL derived distances.
Tenuous? Or is this a two step, so it just doubles the innaccuracy? I have my source checking details...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 1:10 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 948 (179962)
01-23-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by RAZD
01-22-2005 6:43 PM


fireworks!
quote:
this little scenario here completely and utterly destroys the arkathon instant light before the fall (or whenever) theory
Afraid not. Now in science of the stars, they say we have a lot of complications, factors, and anomilies, and such. In a concept like the 'split' one, it seems somewhat less complicated. Nevertheless it seems you found a little wrinkle.
I would see the supernova as happening post split. So, for most of the stars, we would have had Adam seeing them in the garden, as the light was S light. Then, afterwards, the new light then, coming to take it's place, more or less. Here's the wrinkle - The bible tells us in a certain period in particular, (endtime) there will be 'signs in the sky'. Lots of them, so I guess they would 'already' have happened, as our understanding of time goes at least, and the light is on it's way that we'll see soon. In history there have been some of these heavenly signs as well, first thing that comes to mind is the three scientists of their day, who followed such a sign to Bethlehem!
One property of spirtiual light is not that it travels fast, but that it 'can' travel fast. Any way it feels like, or God orders, or wants it to. If we think of an angel, he would not be 'flying all the time', but could get somewhere in a hurry if need be. So I don't know if some 'coding' was involved, where some light was to have a delay, and designed to be seen at a certain time.
The other possibility I can see is, say S light speed was all 'instant' all the time, then, here is how I could arrange things if I were God.
If I wanted a sign in the heaven, such as a supernova to arrive in, say, 1987, (maybe to denote an important event, like the beginning of the rise of a leader, say)- all I do is set it off, so the fireworks happen on cue, or in the right time. Since the event has to take place in a 'universe', now with only P light, I would have to set it in progress within the several thousand years of creation, if I decided only on that. Otherwise, I would use the S light, before split, and have it delayed, so it would arrive precisely on time, or be visible to men, in their light.
If I set off a fireworks show, I have some things go off in sequence, and some that take a little longer for effect! Just when viewers think the show was over, boom, surprise, a grand finale!
Now that makes the universe a more alive, exciting, vibrant, wonderful place! Not just a 'graveyard' of dead, ancient bygone happenstance explosions!
The nice thing about the whole split thing (besides it getting back together one day) is that it very much includes a creator, and spirits, and prophesy, etc. etc.
Hope that helps

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 6:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Admin, posted 01-23-2005 3:39 PM simple has not replied
 Message 257 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2005 4:27 PM simple has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024