Firefly

No, I haven't.I'll look it up.What do you like about it?

The general feel of the show, really. It's the same kind of cynical, absurd outlook on life as Dead Like Me, mixed with the same kind of deadpan, sarcastic dialogue you get on Buffy or Firefly.Not directly the same, mind you... it's just Minear, not Whedon.Plus, the main character's a cutie.

I second Dan's reccomendation of Wonderfalls great writing and acting and the same quirky feel of the Whedon shows.

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*not an actual doctor

Ah, I see. Having some theater background myself, I take it for granted that TV shows and the like are collaborative efforts. I see the actors, directors, creators, the network, and others as having their own agendas or viewpoints. While a creator may not want to make changes, there are often others in the wings trying to get him to do exactly just that.No, I didn’t mean to imply that Whedon would want to change the character. My opinion is that non-mainstream character tend to get reigned in by the Powers That Be.This message has been edited by Trae, 02-04-2005 23:17 AM

Sat down with the DVD's and watched the whole thing. I realize that I'm about to burn Schraf's good opinion of me. I'll come right out and say it - I didn't really like it. It was fun, but to my mind, artistically inferior to the similar Battlestar Galactica (the new one), and less fun than the Stargate shows.I had some basic criticisms. For one thing, the "space western" fusion seems a lot less of an attempt to craft a compelling, unique backdrop (ala Cowboy Bebop) and a lot more of an attempt to allow the writers to draw TV show cliches from not one, but two genres. The obsession with prostitution wore a little thin. I felt the characters were charactures, archetypes, instead of real breathing people. I mean, over here, we have Captain Hardass and his sidekick Chuckles McLaughtrack. Over there it's two varieties of genius ingenoue, and to round out the cast, it's the only two black characters allowed on TV - a sassy woman and a spiritual man with a shady past. Oh, and can't forget the Hooker with the Heart of Gold. Hell, if you did forget, don't worry - there's a whole episode full of hookers with hearts of gold. The title of the episode? "Heart of Gold." Think they were trying to tell us something?And the tech. What the hell? We see a man load a revolver, it obviously holds only six shells - you see him drop 'em in - and then in the next scene, he's firing the thing like it's fully automatic, in bursts of like 20 rounds at a time. The guns make a fancy sci-fi "zip" sound, but they're obviously brass cartrdges using gunpowder to propel lead slugs, as we see in the obligatory "sawbones pullin' the bullets out of folks" scenes. I mean, sci-fi guns that suggested western-style Peacemakers would have been cool, but they didn't even try. What we got were completely traditional cowboy guns with sci-fi sound effects.And the ship looked stupid.If this and Buffy is Joss Whedon's contribution to TV sci-fi/fantasy, he's getting his ass beat with a rubber hose by Ron D. Moore's new Battlestar Galactica. What was with the writing? It was like they couldn't figure out if they were writing for Gunsmoke, Star Trek, or Hee-Haw. It was really hit-or-miss and honestly, more painful than funny.Really. I don't see what the big deal is with Joss Whedon. I've never been all that impressed with Buffy, and Firefly just fell flat with me. Do yourselves a favor and enjoy the much superior Battlestar Galactica, or the always-entertaining Stargate: Atlantis. In the former, you're going to get authentic characterization and a sense that things aren't going to quite wrap up with a bow at the end; in the latter you're going to get high adventure and the standard sci-fi plots with a twist.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-13-2005 11:21 PM

Mal really isn't "Captain Hardass".Wash is goofy, but why the hell are he and Zoe together?I would never describe Zoe as "sassy". In fact, she's the hardest hardass on the ship, even over Mal and Jayne.Book is the biggest mystery. Is he really a man of God or not?As for their race, I really didn't pay much attention to that.Kaylee is completely unashamed about sex, eating, and pleasure in general, which is refreshing to see in a female character on TV.Anyway, please realize that Whedon shows typically take a good two or three seasons to really get going because he believes in taking his time to reveal his characters slowly and let the relationships develop. There is generally a huge Arc story line that gets moved along in most shows, but not all. He gave a million hints about the characters' pasts in Firefly that would have been explored in, say, a year or two.And the ship looked stupid??? What, it didn't look all shiny and "high-tech" enough?Whedon's shows consistently earn high marks from critics and have extremely devoted fan bases. Can't say the same for the Battlestar Galactica TV series.Anyway if you didn't like Buffy much, then I can't help you.If you don't know great writing, acting, framing, and a show that takes it's time developing real and complex characters, then I don't know what to say.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-25-2005 08:24 PM

Were you aware that the Serenity trailer is being played before The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy?...and what's with Crashfrog? I thought he had some taste.

Right. Like every single hooker in the Firefly universe, bar one, hit turns out he has a heart of gold. Women like men who can make them laugh. (I hope!) Yeah, but only because she's kind of immature. Her character is presented as very childlike, not very adult. (For that matter, when does she actually put those ideas into practice? Does she ever have sex in the series?) When the adults try to have unashamed, purely-for-pleasure sex, they can't keep their hands clean - the show clearly comes down against the idea of sex outside of relationships. I would have been refreshed without the "I've got to redeem the ship's hooker" plotline that so informed the entire series. It didn't look like it could fly, certainly not in an atmosphere. I understand that its a cargo vessel but it doesn't have nearly enough room devoted to cargo. And why does a landing-capable ship need two shuttles? Ridiculous.Ugly frickin' ship. Spaceflight is exhilarating. Spaceflight is glorious, making angels gods of the men and women who do it. Their spaceship should be their chariot, and even a "broken down" bottom-of-the-heap junkpile should look like a spaceship. Are you joking? Well, I'll point this out - not only has BG's entire first season been aired (in the right order, natch'), it's coming back for a second season, too. And probably more. I found Firefly in the bargain DVD's bin. I do know those things; in fact I know enough to tell the difference between characters that are real and complex and developed and writers who only pretend to develop real complex characters and wind up with the same-old stereotypes. That's why I'm over here watching Battlestar Galactica, and you should watch it too.Whedon's problem is Firefly is that he never has the characters do anything we might not indentify with; he never allows us to maybe, just maybe, not like the characters. He's obsessed with his characters being likable and as a result, they never become real. They're paper cut-outs.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-26-2005 10:46 AM

I do. That's why I'm watching Battlestar Galactica.

I'd better not go to the theater. I'd leave a very nerdy mess on the seats. Probably inbreeding. I've heard stories about these Missouri types.

Yeah, in Out of Gas. Plus, I know she doesn't actually have sex with him, but she's throwing herself at Simon the whole way through. I never got the "redeem the hooker" vibe off this show. The feeling I got was always that Mal was being an asshole when he ripped on her for what she does, and that Inara was being hypocritical when Mal slept with her friend in Heart of Gold. Not because of any morality or immorality to prostitution, but because the characters are supposed to be in love, and people in love are stupid, thoughtless, and irrational. So we can assume that you prefer the Episodes I and II to the original Star Wars trilogy? Maybe not characters that you identify with. Which is fair. But I identify with Mal way too easily for my own comfort.This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 04-26-2005 11:03 AM

Like our lord and savior Jesus Haploid Christ, I'm in Missouri, but not of it. For me, barbeque will always be something you do, not something you go out for.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-26-2005 02:05 PM

Well, yeah, I felt that way too. But the show seems to reinforce their feelings, not ours. It felt preachy to me, like "See what happens, people, when you have sex outside of a loving relationship?"Contrast that to Katee Sackhoff's Starbuck. She has sex with Baltar and it's no big deal to her - but it is to Baltar, who's shattered to realize that there might be a woman who could play him as he plays women; it's a big deal to Apollo who has feelings for her. And she for him. Is she remorseful about hurting him that way? Not in the least. She is who she is and if Apollo doesn't like it, or if anybody doesn't like it, fuck 'em.That's sexual independance. Not the juvenile whore/virgin dichotomy of Firefly. No frickin' way. Those ships look like toys.I mean, the Millenium Falcon has it's guts hangin' out, panels blown off, etc. It looks like a flying jalopy hotrod. You almost expect it to honk "la cucaracha" when it tears out of Mos Eisly. But even so it looks like it could fly. It looks like it could handle the rigors of flying from planet to planet. The Serenity looks like it would break apart in an atmosphere, and it looks like it doesn't have nearly enough room for cargo. And two shuttles? WTF? Everybody does. That's what I'm saying. I identified with him, too. He never does anything that might, even briefly, alienate the viewers. Contrast that to Edward James Olmos's Captain Adama, who acts true to character, he does what he believes needs to be done, and sometimes, that's not the right thing. In the last episode of the first season, when he deposes the President, that action is alienating, escalating, completely wrong-headed - and totally in character.That's a real character. Not like Mal, the archetypical cowboy in a black-and-white moral universe. The entire show is set up so that he never has to do anything but the right thing, the thing we're all rooting for. Sure, he's got a big, in-depth backstory. Well, who cares? Anyone can write a backstory. A big ol' backstory should not be confused for real characterization.

See, I never got that either. It's a running theme on all Whedon shows that sex complicates and intensifies situations, because... well, for most people that's the case. It could be societal, or ingrained, or blah blah blah, doesn't really matter. There it is anyway. But I didn't see any moral or tsk-tsk-you-should-have-known sort of connotation. I haven't seen this show, so I couldn't say. Mm... not getting it. Again, go back to Out of Gas... Kaylee, everybody's little sister, having a grand old time with some guy based solely on the fact that he's got a nice chest and some cool tats. And afterwards, she's done up no differently than her standard sweetie character.I know there's not a shitload of other scenes to refer to, but let's face it... there are thirteen episodes, and four female characters. One of those is characters is married, and another's a basket case. If someone threw it like a frisbee, maybe. Weren't we just talking about what an asshole he is to Inara?

Well, somehow my wife saw it too, so I don't think I'm making that up, but your milage may vary. Oh, well. I think I've made my views clear, I hope. I hope you'll check it out, you and Schraf both. I've been catching it via bittorrent, but presumably it'll be out on DVD soon enough. And I hope you won't watch it with the aim of proving me wrong; my hope is that you'll watch it because its good, well-written, engaging, character-driven sci-fi drama. Aren't we, as the audience, rooting for him to say what he says? To urge her to leave the prostitute's lifestyle so that she can settle down with him? Isn't that rather the point of the unresolved sexual tension between them? To say "look, if she didn't insist on being a prostitute, she could settle down with this nice guy." Like I've said I find it a bit preachy.