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Author Topic:   Dover science teachers refuse to read ID disclaimer
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 31 of 164 (177015)
01-14-2005 1:26 PM


For those who will miss the current disclaimers, here's a few alternative disclaimer stickers.
(and no, I'm not back, after that thing with holmes. I just ran into this, found it really amusing, but didn't know where else to post it. bye again..)
This message has been edited by Rei, 01-14-2005 13:30 AM

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Abshalom, posted 01-14-2005 5:10 PM Rei has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 164 (177062)
01-14-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rei
01-14-2005 1:26 PM


For What It's Worth
Rei:
I read most (not nearly all, but at least the first few and last few) of the posts regarding your and Holmes differing takes on what constitutes rape.
I have to say that Holmes definition of rape as only being sex forced on a physically resistant individual makes me think that he would define "murder" as only killing a actively resistent individual and that killing a passive individual would be defined as "assisted suicide." How ignorant is that? I mean how many people have been murdered assassination-style?
{This message not even remotely on topic. Please no replies to it. - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-14-2005 17:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rei, posted 01-14-2005 1:26 PM Rei has not replied

  
Steen
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 164 (177610)
01-16-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by xevolutionist
01-13-2005 3:52 PM


Re: Who writes this stuff?
quote:
Even if you offer panspermia as a solution to the ORIGIN of life, you just move the problem to another location don't you?
Once again, we are baffled over a creationist of some flavor or another claiming that abiogenesis somehow is evolution.
Now, I am not sure where that idea comes from, but given that this is the education forum, it does raise in interesting point. Given that creationists seems so extremely poorly educated about what the Scientific Theory of Evolution actually encompasses, I should think that this is good evidence that we need MORE education in evolution.
And xevolutionist, what exactly is the rationale behind your name? Because it doesn't seem that you learned what evolution is, to begin with. Can you give us your brief description of what you have learned that Evolution is? I think we need to look at how evolution has been taught to you, as your impression of evolution seems so far off as to never have been there, making your name seem improbable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by xevolutionist, posted 01-13-2005 3:52 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 34 of 164 (183437)
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


A battle won in Alaska
We (my family) just went through a load of crap over the ID issue. Our 15 yo son is home schooled (not because we are opposed to public schools, but because they wanted to put him in the 'alterntative school' so he could learn less at a slower pace).
He has flowered in home school, and is now testing above in his grade level (from being two grades below a year ago). As part of his program we send him to classes taught at people's homes in various subjects. One of those was a class in mammal anatomy. The teacher of that class focused her teaching on how perfect all of the organs were because of God's design. She also said that evolution was impossible and told the kids that their parents were wrong if they beleived in evolution.
We immediately called IDEA (the Alaska homeschool program that paid for this) and were told she could teach what she wants, they pay for homeschool classes and do not discriminate. So we called the IDEA director. He agreed it was wrong but urged us to just ignore it. We kept pushing and were repeatedly told to stop. At one point we were told that they spoke to the teacher involved and she said that she would not stop teaching creationism. The IDEA program continued to fund her. So we called the ACLU here in Alaska. One letter from them and they dropped her like a hot potato. She maintains her program, but no longer has state funding. A rare victory for reason, although now we are assholes to a good number of Juneauites (we changed our phone number and made it unlisted, Christian goodwill my ass).
I would like to sieze this opportunity to let Xevolutionist know that his argument has been left open at a new topic here: Evolution wins Part 2

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Syamsu, posted 02-06-2005 8:16 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 37 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:55 AM Lithodid-Man has replied
 Message 38 by Silent H, posted 02-06-2005 11:54 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 39 by Coragyps, posted 02-06-2005 12:22 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 35 of 164 (183455)
02-06-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Well I think you went way overboard. It's *home*schooling, not stateschooling, people's individual liberty goes at home. You might just as well say, people aren't allowed to buy religious books of their social security, and call the police when you see it happen.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:53 AM Syamsu has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 164 (183463)
02-06-2005 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Syamsu
02-06-2005 8:16 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
quote:
Well I think you went way overboard. It's *home*schooling, not stateschooling,
...except that this woman was getting money from citizen's taxes to indoctrinate people into her religion, which violates the Constitution of the US.
She cannot use public funds to endorse any one religion. That is against the US Constitution. She can do it on her own dollar all she wants.
quote:
people's individual liberty goes at home.
Not when she is getting public money to spread her religious views.
quote:
You might just as well say, people aren't allowed to buy religious books of their social security,
Sure they can, because their individual social security money is for their own living expenses.
This woman was using public education taxes to promote her religion.
The equivalent would be if the government made people take a religious oath to believe in Jesus before getting their social security check.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Syamsu, posted 02-06-2005 8:16 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Syamsu, posted 02-07-2005 9:14 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 164 (183465)
02-06-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Well done! You fought the good fight and won. I do not consider it a small victory at all.
What did your son think of all this? What did he think of what he had been taught?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 7:26 PM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 164 (183495)
02-06-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
I agree with schraf, good job. It's too bad that fighting the good fight means that you are facing the wrath of the mob with burning crosses... I mean torches.
I am also interested in what your son thought of all this. And did he say anything to the "teacher" at the time?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 39 of 164 (183500)
02-06-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Wow! Good goin', LM! Don't let the bastards grind you down!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 40 of 164 (183586)
02-06-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by nator
02-06-2005 8:55 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Thanks Schraf!
One of the more difficult parts of this thing was dealing with people who were on our side but believed, like Syamsu, that we were making an issue out of it rather than just letting it go. I am afraid that a lot of these battles never get off of the ground because people take the "those wacky creos, they never quit" attitude and then let it go.
I will give this teacher credit and respect on one issue. When asked about the class she admitted saying everything. When given a choice to stop using the class to teach ID and keep state funding she refused. Our fear was that she would agree and just keep doing it. Ours was the first complaint even though she has been teaching for several years (I suspect that there aren't a lot of biologist parents with kids in home school). So I admire her honesty and I completely agree that she has every right to teach this material, but not with state funds.
As for my son... He did question her on a comment that evolution was impossible (he said that his dad was a evolutionary biologist) and she told him his dad was wrong because the organs of any animal function in tandem and could never have evolved. He doesn't like confrontation and dropped the issue but told us about it immediately. I would have been content just talking to her but she refused to speak with me. My son was actually pissed at me for making an issue out of it because he thinks that some of the other kids now treat him differently. I sympathize with his feelings but feel the larger picture is at risk.
This message has been edited by Lithodid-Man, 02-06-2005 19:26 AM
This message has been edited by Lithodid-Man, 02-06-2005 19:27 AM

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:55 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 4:58 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 41 of 164 (183635)
02-07-2005 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 7:26 PM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
My son was actually pissed at me for making an issue out of it because he thinks that some of the other kids now treat him differently.
While I understand feeling bad because sticking out always sort of acts like a lightning rod, especially for kids, I don't see it as you having made an issue.
If a person tries to kill someone and you interfere, that might draw the murderers attention and he (or his friends) could come after you and your family... but that was not you who "made an issue". They made an issue and you responded according to duty to protect your rights, as well as everyone else's.
In this case this lady constructed a false class and took money she should not be taking for it, counting on the complacency of others in order to keep taking the money. While not a murderer, it is the same thing as any petty con man or swindler.
Why make waves? The real question is why did she?
Maybe your son would understand it from that angle, though I suppose it won't help with how he gets treated. Ironically maybe some good Xian movies would help with that as they usually emphasize how important it is to stick up for rights despite the persecution that will follow. You were right, she was wrong, they are now persecuting... ahhhhh the irony.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-07-2005 05:03 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 7:26 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-07-2005 5:54 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 42 of 164 (183640)
02-07-2005 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Silent H
02-07-2005 4:58 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Honestly Holmes the issue with my son is far more superficial, I believe. I am in the unfortunate position of being the parent of a teenager.Right or wrong I am always wrong. He acknowledges that the teacher was incorrect, but he is still mad that we pointed it out publically. I hope that someday he will understand why it was important.
Parents of teens will understand my plight. I understand why natural selection has made it a bad thing to just eat them when they hit a certain age. Else our species would have gone extinct some time ago. Teenagers of either sex are incomprehensible to me. To the best of my recollection I went from child to adult and bypassed any nasty intermediary phase. (with the notable exception of me exiting a Kennedys show with my 12 inch mohawk in 1983 with a photo that appeared in the Bremerton Sun and almost killed my dad).

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 4:58 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 43 of 164 (183666)
02-07-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by nator
02-06-2005 8:53 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
But... it's at home.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:53 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2005 9:26 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 44 of 164 (183670)
02-07-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Syamsu
02-07-2005 9:14 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Syamsu: we know it's in a home. It's paid for with tax money. Our country has a Constitution that forbids that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Syamsu, posted 02-07-2005 9:14 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Syamsu, posted 02-07-2005 9:55 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 45 of 164 (183671)
02-07-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coragyps
02-07-2005 9:26 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Well dump the whole program then, rather then for the government to decide what is teached in people's homes.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2005 9:26 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by kjsimons, posted 02-07-2005 10:43 AM Syamsu has replied

  
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