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Author Topic:   What happens after death for an atheist?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 136 of 162 (183819)
02-07-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
02-07-2005 8:20 PM


Re: Oh, the psychological abuse!!
I'll get back to you mate.
Had some serious bad news.
Sorry mate, seriously fucked up right now.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 02-07-2005 8:20 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2005 9:32 PM Brian has not replied

  
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 162 (183821)
02-07-2005 8:49 PM


Too crazy, too hard, or too anti?
Since the memory of this thread is running up, I'll try to be brief...
Lizard, thanks for your views, I appreciate them, and even though you don't seem to care about God, I'm glad you try to put the facts on the table rather than just blindly attack someone who doesn't believe as you do.
Brian, yes, I believe that "nonsense", and DHA, here are some scriptures.
1 corinthians 15:40-42 - Kingdoms of glory
2 corinthians 12:2 - More on the subject
And now that we have taken a few off the top of my head from the one and only Bible, Let's do some from MY doctrine.
D&C 76:70 - Glorified bodies
D&C 78:7 - Eyewitness of kingdom
D&C 88:...well basically the whole thing talks of Celestial Glory.
D&C 101:65 - Recieving Celestial glory
D&C 137:1 - More eyewitness of kingdom
Alma 11:37 - No unclean thing may enter
2 Nephi 28:19 - Devils Kingdom
Alma 41:4 - Unrighteous inherit devils kingdom
D&C 131:1 - Three degrees of glory
You may notice that alot more information on this topic is found in The Doctrine and Covenants than BOM. Many truths have been revealed through modern revealation since the BOM was written by the ancient inhabitants of the american continents. But yes, you can find lots of key doctrines of the LDS church in the BOM (which actually is NOT the most sacred work of the church). (;
And about raising children in a 'brainwashed' environment, maybe you should first look at the curriculum being taught in public schools before you attack what children learn in their own home. Talk about biased.
Most of you have agued that there is no proof of an afterlife. There is no proof of evolution either. But there is evidence of creation all around.
Alot of you have fallen back on saying childesh comments that make me lower my expectations of your debating skills.
If you call it all a fantasy, than you have nothing else to say.

A Day unto God is thousands of years to man. 6 Godly Days of creation does not undermine the fossil record.
The fossil record, however, clearly undermines evolution. (Any questions should be asked, and every answer will be given)

Replies to this message:
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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 138 of 162 (183826)
02-07-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Brian
02-07-2005 10:33 AM


Re: Religion a waste of time you say?
quote:
One of the things that annoys me about theists is how they force their beliefs onto thier kids before the child has the mental capacity to understand what is going on. Countless millions of children have been psychologically abused over the centuries by their parents, who force the child to believe in their faith. There should be a religous age of consent whereby children under a certain age should not be allowed to follow a religion.
There is something deeply disturbing about a 4 or 5 year old child praying to god or being forced to go through one of their silly rituals.
This is problematic, though; as singling out religion would be inconsistent, thus irrational. And defining a method by which to determine whether a belief in a given proposition is warranted is beyond even my capabilities.
For example, I believe that you're telling the truth when you say that you're annoyed and disturbed. Why do I believe it, though? I mean, I don't have any evidence supporting this specific proposition -- all I have is evidence supporting similar propositions, plus the ordinariness and inconsequentiality of the claim. However, evidence of similar propositions and the valuation as to the degree of ordinariness will vary, as people's experiences vary. The valuation as to the degree of consequentiality will vary depending on what consequences a given person predicts, and how they value those -- and at this point, all I can say is that that is dependent on personality, as the tree has grown too large to follow the branches.
Oh wait... there's another factor in my belief that you're telling the truth. I know that you have access to the truth, as you'd know if you're annoyed and disturbed.
But anyway, before we go off and try to regulate what beliefs should or should not be taught to children, we really need to determine an objective, quantifiable method by which probability calculations can be made; and determine an objective, quantifiable method by which a determination of a 'sufficient' level of probability can be made.
While we both may agree that the theist is using a method by which the probability of being right is vanishingly low, and that the probability level that is required before belief is warranted is extraordinarily high; this doesn't free us from the task of decompiling our methods, and proving that our program is better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Brian, posted 02-07-2005 10:33 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by LDSdude, posted 02-07-2005 10:37 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 139 of 162 (183828)
02-07-2005 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Brian
02-07-2005 8:24 PM


Re: Oh, the psychological abuse!!
Brian - sorry about the bad news. Hang in there, man!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Brian, posted 02-07-2005 8:24 PM Brian has not replied

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 140 of 162 (183829)
02-07-2005 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by LDSdude
02-07-2005 8:49 PM


Re: Too crazy, too hard, or too anti?
There is no proof of evolution either.
Well, I've seen more than enough to convince me. One wonders what you would consider sufficient proof.
But there is evidence of creation all around.
A bold assertion. Can you perhaps direct me to some examples of this evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by LDSdude, posted 02-07-2005 8:49 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 162 (183830)
02-07-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Brian
02-07-2005 8:13 PM


Re: Oh, the psychological abuse!!
I've always regretted that I grew up in a home where nobody gave a damn about religion . . .
Brain writes:
You are talking shit.
Why do you say that? I was telling you the truth.
I know this church where my stepson goes--you know what they do? They adopt kids who have no home, whose parents are in prison or dead or on Death Row. If not for this adoption, most of these kids would end as drug pushers and 5-dollar street whores.
Brian writes:
Don't talk shit, what a fucking embarrassing thing to say. What are you, the fuckin Delphi Oracle?
What are you calling "embarrassing"? These are the facts. Happens all the time. Visit a ghetto and see if you prefer that to "structure," even if it's religious structure. If you visit your local prison and quiz the inmates, I don't think that very many would tell you, "The reason I committed armed robbery was that my parents forced me to go to church." No, most of them came from homes that were shattered in some sense.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-07-2005 21:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Brian, posted 02-07-2005 8:13 PM Brian has not replied

  
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 162 (183831)
02-07-2005 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by DominionSeraph
02-07-2005 9:28 PM


Re: Religion a waste of time you say?
(quote)While we both may agree that the theist is using a method by which the probability of being right is vanishingly low(/quote)
Really? Is that so? The fact that evolution is in control in schools, government and society is a product of false advertising to which the only remedy is for all scientists who proclaim evolution to show their proof. When the call is made without any reasonable objective results in hand to analyze, and when the response is so quiet as to show that there is no proof, and when the agenda seeking conceptionalists open up to explaining both the facts and faults of the theory, as they currently teach every other scientific theory without an involvement to the realizing of the existence of a divinity, then, in that solemn moment, both sides of the lines will equalize and strengthen within themselves to create a 'two-party' scientific community whereas the reality of the theory will become a matter subject only to the undeniable scientific evidence presented rather than the mechanism of continuous unyeilding strife of keeping the theory taught as fact to the youth of the soon to power generation of objective minds in this democratic republic.
If you can't prove that there is a supreme being watching over us, is it not understandable that the power within him is not evidenced boldly to our mortal senses, but is withdrawn for the purpose to see if you could ever find the truth and accept it so as to show unto Him your willingness and desire to follow his precepts and always obey him that you may be rewarded in the life to come? There is a reason that you don't find God's name etched on a mountain side, nor do you find his fingerprints on the bark of a tree.
But he did leave evidence of his work. Homogenous structures within the bones of animals show the same creator used the same style of creation throughout all of his work. Bacterial flagelums on the back of many types of single-celled organisms show the inability of natural forces to create perfect, irreducibly complex molecular machines. The inability of amino acids to contruct themselves through chemical reactions into working protiens without the DNA and RNA patterns of instructive creation shows how man's theory of evolution is self-destroying from the beginning of the origin of species. The Periodic Table of the Elements is a jigsaw puzzle of organization and intelligent designing. The perfect recycling systems that occur so harmoniously and effiecently in nature, such as the carbon cycle, water cycle, and nitrogen cycle, each and every one of the earths species fitting into the system as an important role player in keeping the systems moving, are extremely improbable actions. It is as improbable as putting the many different gears, screws and springs of a clock at many separate ends of the universe and then all of them coming together to form the clock and start ticking with no outside forces acting on it.
The evidence is in front of your nose. Stop looking at Darwin and start looking at the ground you stand on. (;

A Day unto God is thousands of years to man. 6 Godly Days of creation does not undermine the fossil record.
The fossil record, however, clearly undermines evolution. (Any questions should be asked, and every answer will be given)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by DominionSeraph, posted 02-07-2005 9:28 PM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by AdminJar, posted 02-07-2005 10:51 PM LDSdude has not replied
 Message 145 by DominionSeraph, posted 02-08-2005 4:30 AM LDSdude has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 143 of 162 (183832)
02-07-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by riVeRraT
02-07-2005 6:14 PM


Re: Time
riVeRrat
riVeRrat writes:
Since there might be no time in heaven, that would make boredom impossible.
sidlined writes:
Depends on whether you find motionlessness boring I suppose since you cannot move without the passage of time.
riVeRrat writes:
Isn't that ignorance?
Pretty limited view of another demension. I really expected more from you. I know you dream about things like that.
Limited view of another dimension? We were discussing the nature of time RR. What dimension are you talking about in which events occur without time being present? I am ignorant? What did I ignore RR?
It think you are talking through your hat.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2005 6:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 02-08-2005 7:30 AM sidelined has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 162 (183833)
02-07-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by LDSdude
02-07-2005 10:37 PM


Re: Religion a waste of time you say?
Evolution or the TOE are not pertinent to this thread and have nothing to do with religion anyway. Please try to stay on topic and stop bringing in unrelated matters.

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This message is a reply to:
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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 145 of 162 (183876)
02-08-2005 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by LDSdude
02-07-2005 10:37 PM


Re: Religion a waste of time you say?
quote:
(quote)While we both may agree that the theist is using a method by which the probability of being right is vanishingly low(/quote)
Really? Is that so?
Yes, because 'faith' is also known as 'guessing', and guessing don't work too good.
quote:
The fact that evolution is in control in schools, government and society is a product of false advertising to which the only remedy is for all scientists who proclaim evolution to show their proof.
Evolution is in control of nothing. It's a theory.
However, rational human beings are, for the most part, in control of schools. (I'll withold judgment on government, and society controls itself.) You seem to take issue with this, and seem to want equal time for the whackos.
Sorry, but if you want your kids to learn nonsense, you're gonna have to teach them that yourself.
Anyway, the evidence supporting evolution is readily available. I suggest you take a look at it, instead of getting your information from Fundies who are trying to buy their way into heaven by getting converts.
quote:
If you can't prove that there is a supreme being watching over us, is it not understandable that the power within him is not evidenced boldly to our mortal senses, but is withdrawn for the purpose to see if you could ever find the truth and accept it so as to show unto Him your willingness and desire to follow his precepts and always obey him that you may be rewarded in the life to come?
You're speculating as to the motives of this hypothetical being-in-hiding. You've also just implied that it's not omniscient, as an omniscient being wouldn't need to wait to know anything.
I can also speculate.
This hypothetical being (limited in knowledge, like yours) is hiding to test people for gullibility. It got someone to make an unsupported assertion that it existed, and then went into hiding to see how many suckers believed. Those who believe show themselves to be mindless sheep instead of human beings, and they fail the test.
Isn't this fun?
quote:
There is a reason that you don't find God's name etched on a mountain side, nor do you find his fingerprints on the bark of a tree.
Yeah, because it's highly improbable that any god named God exists.
If something doesn't exist, I don't expect to find any evidence that it does.
quote:
But he did leave evidence of his work. Homogenous structures within the bones of animals show the same creator used the same style of creation throughout all of his work. Bacterial flagelums on the back of many types of single-celled organisms show the inability of natural forces to create perfect, irreducibly complex molecular machines. The inability of amino acids to contruct themselves through chemical reactions into working protiens without the DNA and RNA patterns of instructive creation shows how man's theory of evolution is self-destroying from the beginning of the origin of species. The Periodic Table of the Elements is a jigsaw puzzle of organization and intelligent designing. The perfect recycling systems that occur so harmoniously and effiecently in nature, such as the carbon cycle, water cycle, and nitrogen cycle, each and every one of the earths species fitting into the system as an important role player in keeping the systems moving, are extremely improbable actions. It is as improbable as putting the many different gears, screws and springs of a clock at many separate ends of the universe and then all of them coming together to form the clock and start ticking with no outside forces acting on it.
The evidence is in front of your nose. Stop looking at Darwin and start looking at the ground you stand on. (;
I have. All I see are natural processes, plus the deficiencies in your reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by LDSdude, posted 02-07-2005 10:37 PM LDSdude has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by LDSdude, posted 02-13-2005 8:23 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 162 (183880)
02-08-2005 4:44 AM


quote:
I know this church where my stepson goes--you know what they do? They adopt kids who have no home, whose parents are in prison or dead or on Death Row. If not for this adoption, most of these kids would end as drug pushers and 5-dollar street whores
Yes, well maybe this church should get off its arse and do something about the problem instead of preying on the vulnerable. I agree with Brians response, you are not the oracle and you have no right to claim that they would have had terrible lives were it not for religion.

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 147 of 162 (183890)
02-08-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by sidelined
02-07-2005 10:50 PM


Re: Time
Sorry bro, I got confused with another thread were I mentioned that heaven could be in the 4th demension, where there is no time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by sidelined, posted 02-07-2005 10:50 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by sidelined, posted 02-08-2005 7:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 148 of 162 (183896)
02-08-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by riVeRraT
02-08-2005 7:30 AM


Re: Time
riVeRrat
No problem except time is taken as the forth dimension.There are three space dimensions and the fourth is time.The term spacetime refers to the union of these four in equations of special relativity.They are inseperable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 02-08-2005 7:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by riVeRraT, posted 02-09-2005 7:59 AM sidelined has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 162 (183900)
02-08-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by contracycle
02-08-2005 4:44 AM


Contracycle writes:
you are not the oracle and you have no right to claim that they would have had terrible lives were it not for religion.
It's not the religion per se that's going to help them; it's the structured disciplined life-style and having a family that cares about them--that will help them.
Brain seems to be over-reacting immensely. He had to go to church--so what! Lots worse things than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by contracycle, posted 02-08-2005 4:44 AM contracycle has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 150 of 162 (183939)
02-08-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Brian
02-07-2005 7:43 PM


Re: Gary and all
quote:
It's almost as ludicrous as the New Testament.
Much, much more ludicrouser!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Brian, posted 02-07-2005 7:43 PM Brian has not replied

  
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