What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

Why is hell filled with christians, and what is so bad about the sabbath? (I am not trying to start a debate and drag the discussion off topic, so I won't argue with your answer. I am just curious...)JTyou --> yourThis message has been edited by JT, 02-09-2005 12:24 AM

Not christians but CHRISTIANs. Not the sabbath but SUNDAY when combined with CHRISTIANs and the evangelical.My basic reasoning is based on my readings here and contact with CHRISTIANs. I believe that very few CHRISTIANs have a clue what christianity is all about. That is why I'm quite sure that the average atheist has a far higher likelyhood of ever going to heaven than any CHRISTIAN.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

In a manner of speaking. I've been out of sorts. I think I'm going through some sort of life change again--which might prove dangerous. This topic by Schrafinator is addressed to believers, and so I, not being a believer, had nothing to say.Talking to you, however, always peps me up.I've been trying to think of a really good philosophical topic I could introduce that you and others of your ilk, plus educated believers, would be interested in. I haven't come up with anything yet. Until then, I need to keep my trap shut.Chow.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand what you are saying now.Thanks,
JT

Actually, you have come up with something I'm interested in. You mentioned it in passing in one of your recent mushroom-induced delirious states...

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

Which just goes to show us, my friend, that mushroom-induced delerious states are capable of generating creative ideas and therefore are not to be dismissed out of hand.And that something that you were interested in was . . .?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wouldn't you like to guess? I'll give you a hint: it's an idea.

"memes through which time flows . . ."?I know how you like memes.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bingo.Although I'm not sure about "through which time flows". Maybe I need some mushrooms for that. But memes it is.I've been meaning to prepare a topic proposal about it. But it's going to have to wait because I want to do some reading up on it first.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

Didn't the concept of memes originate with that book called "The Selfish Gene," if I am not mistaken? You know that book?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

p157The Blind Watchmaker
"In The Selfish Gene I speculated that we may now be on the threshold of a new kind of genetic takeover. DNA replicators built 'survival machines' for themselves - the bodies of living organisms including ourselves. As part of their equipment, bodies evolved on board computers - brains. Brains evolved the capacity to communicate with other brains by means of language and cultural traditions. But the new milieu of cultural tradition opens up new possibilties for self replicating entities. The new replicators are not DNA and they are not clay crystals. They are patterns of information that can thrive only in brains or the artificially manufactured products of brains - books, computers, and so on. But, given that brains, books and computers exist, these new replicators, which I called memes to distinguish them from genes, can propagate themselves from brain to brain, from brain to book to book, from book to brain, from brain to computer, from computer to computer."WWNORTON&Company New York London 1986I have thought more about heaven and hell than memes.

Yes, I own a copy. It's been a while since I read it, so it's part of the "reading up on it" I mentioned. Also, Daniel Dennett has said some important things about it. More reading up on it.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

What are your thoughts on heaven and hell, Brad? Do you think of them in a traditional way?In my view, Earth has enough of Hell to suffice.

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The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.---Milton

Thanks Brad, for the reference. It's the appropriate thing to do in this thread. But then again, 'heaven' and 'hell' are memes themselves, so you may not have been thinking about 'memes', but you have been thinking about memes. (I guess you are familiar with the so-called 'use-mention' distinction I'm applying here.)(Apologies to schrafinator and the admins for hijacking this thread.)

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

I'm going to see if I can get a copy of "The Selfish Gene" and read up on it some so that I can follow what you say and probably refute your theory, whatever it is, with logical tricks.I'll be waiting patiently.In the meantime I'm going to try to figure out what I meant by "memes through which time flows." Sounds deep to me.