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Author Topic:   Who Owes Income Taxes?
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 80 (184308)
02-10-2005 12:32 AM


Hi Coffee Room,

I thought this would make interesting fodder.

Look at this selection from the 2004 1040 instruction book (taken from the IRS's web site):

Okay. I see where it tells me to report FOREIGN SOURCE income or income I earn OUTSIDE the U.S., but what about income I earn INSIDE the U.S.?

Y'all look and see if y'all can find it. AFAIK, this is the only place in the instruction booklet that defines income!

Cheers,
--TheLit


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 1:06 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 3:04 AM TheLiteralist has responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 80 (184320)
02-10-2005 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 12:32 AM


page number
That Income selection is from page 19 of the online pdf 1040 instruction booklet, btw.

--TheLit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 12:32 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 80 (184338)
02-10-2005 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 12:32 AM


I am not sure what you point is? I live and work in Germany but am American. I pay taxes (a huge amount I might add) in Germany. If I make under 80 K per year, I am exempt from being double taxed. But I have to make a tax declaration of my German income to the IRS every year even if in the end, I owe no taxes. If not for this provision, I and anyone who worked outside of the US would have to pay double tax and would end up essentially with no income whatsoever.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 12:32 AM TheLiteralist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM Mammuthus has responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 80 (184343)
02-10-2005 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
02-10-2005 3:04 AM


we're easily fooled is the point
Mammuthus,

Then you are an American earning income from a FOREIGN SOURCE (from OUTSIDE the United States), just like it says there.

I, and many like me, however, are Americans earning income from INSIDE (and not OUTSIDE) the United States.

So, while I am in no way giving people advice on whether or not to pay taxes (no way am I doing that), I am asking if anyone can prove to me that *I* or any other American earning income from sources INSIDE the United States are liable to pay federal income taxes. The instruction booklet bothers to mention foreign source income but nowhere (that I can find) mentions domestic source income.

There is much more information (for instance, the tax code) that makes it appear that we [Americans earning income from inside the United States] do not, but I thought I'd start the discussion off with something simple--i.e., the 1040 instruction booklet, which is easily accessible.

The point, if people will choose to discuss this topic, will eventually be, not taxes so much, but the amazing degree (and how easily) to which we, the public, can be fooled by propaganda when we trust, unquestioningly, those who appear to have "authority".

Thanks for the response.

--TheLit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 3:04 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 02-10-2005 5:07 AM TheLiteralist has responded
 Message 6 by CK, posted 02-10-2005 6:11 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 6:35 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 8 by CK, posted 02-10-2005 7:22 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2005 11:01 AM TheLiteralist has responded
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 02-10-2005 1:26 PM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 27 by tsig, posted 02-11-2005 3:09 PM TheLiteralist has responded

Rrhain
Member (Idle past 37 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 5 of 80 (184348)
02-10-2005 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Yes, you have to pay income tax
(*sigh*)

Because you need to file a 1040, and since the 1040 guides you through the process of calculating your income earned while in the US, it is pretty much obvious where you report your income earned while in the US. It is, after all, a US tax return and the very first section after the demographic information is labeled in big, huge letters: "Income." All of lines 7 through 22 are "Income."

Page 12 of your instructions tells you who has to file the return. It also says, "Use Chart A, B, or C to see if you must file a return. U.S. citizens who lived in or had income from a U.S. possession should see Pub. 570."

Chart A mentions:

"Gross income means all income you received in the form of money, goods, property, and services that is not exempt from tax, including any income from sources outside the United States (even if you may exclude part or all of it). Do not include social security benefits unless you are married filing a separate return and you lived with your spouse at any time in 2004."

So it would seem that "income" is, indeed, defined in the instructions. You did read the instructions, didn't you? They go through every single line of the return, explaining what it is you need to enter. All of them taken together represent "Income." The first section is reminding you that you must include foreign sources.

What were you expecting? The definition of "income" is "All of the items in this section." They then proceed to define each item in the section.

Oh, and because I think I know where you're going, yes, you have to pay income tax. The law is crystal clear. Every single citizen of the US who earns money in any way, shape, or form, from any source, needs to account for it. The law does not cotton to such disingenuous claims of, "Well, you didn't say that I, specifically, Joe Smith, need to pay taxes!"

This message has been edited by Rrhain, 02-10-2005 05:12 AM


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-11-2005 10:18 PM Rrhain has responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2293 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 80 (184354)
02-10-2005 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
Look just tell Kent Hovind that he has to pay his taxes and that is that!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 7 of 80 (184356)
02-10-2005 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
quote:
not taxes so much, but the amazing degree (and how easily) to which we, the public, can be fooled by propaganda when we trust, unquestioningly, those who appear to have "authority".

You mean like those who "unquestioningly" follow the bible (or what people tell them the bible tells them) because of its supposed "authority"? Or those who follow a particlar preacher/leader/politician "unquestioningly" because they appear to have "authority"? I am not sure how your tax example will lead to a discussion of this sort. Maybe you meant something else?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2293 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 8 of 80 (184360)
02-10-2005 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
quote:
The point, if people will choose to discuss this topic, will eventually be, not taxes so much, but the amazing degree (and how easily) to which we, the public, can be fooled by propaganda when we trust, unquestioningly, those who appear to have "authority".

I know just what you mean -the catholic church put out some terrible half-truths about the use of condoms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 80 (184395)
02-10-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
but the amazing degree (and how easily) to which we, the public, can be fooled by propaganda when we trust, unquestioningly, those who appear to have "authority".

But the US government does have authority. They have real authority. They're the very definition of "the authorities."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-11-2005 11:04 PM crashfrog has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 15042
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 10 of 80 (184423)
02-10-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 4:17 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
Well what you have presented is simply the usual creationist tactic of out-of-context quoting. But it seems that you haven't actually managed to fool anyone.

If you actually look at the form (p4 of the pdf) you will see that the "Income" section includes lines 7-22. The material you quote is part of the explanatory material for the section - starting with general information and going on to deal with the individual lines. It is NOT a definition of Income as you claim.

Moreover there IS an actual definition of Gross Income in Table A
"Gross income means all income you received in the form of money, goods, property, and services that is not exempt from tax, including any income from sources outside the United States (even if you may exclude part or all of it). Do not include social security benefits unless you are married filing a separate return and you lived with your spouse at any time in 2004."

Now I assume that you did this deliberately to illustrate how out-of-context quotations can be used to misrepresent an issue. Although you don't seem to have fooled anyone here you might have better luck on a creationist-dominated forum. (As well as more of a point. As I say, this sort of misrepresentation is a common creationist tactic and it is a good idea to draw attention to it).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 4:17 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

  
Raymon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 80 (184426)
02-10-2005 2:12 PM


We the People
I don't know if I should be mentioning this, because I don't really want to defend them or thier practices, but I am aware of a group called "We the People" who exist to challenge the US government on certain constitutional issues, one of them being the consitutionality of the income tax as it is currently enforced.

They hold as you do that income as defined in the consitution is a very limited form of income and that the Supream Court ruled that the 16th amendment gave the gov no new powers, etc, etc...

They also have issues with the Wars Power Act(sp?)


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Clark, posted 02-10-2005 7:34 PM Raymon has not yet responded

Clark
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 80 (184468)
02-10-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Raymon
02-10-2005 2:12 PM


Re: We the People
Just so everyone's on the same page, the 16th amendment states:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

I'm pretty sure that means you got to pay income taxes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Raymon, posted 02-10-2005 2:12 PM Raymon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by kjsimons, posted 02-11-2005 10:06 AM Clark has not yet responded

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 667
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 13 of 80 (184542)
02-11-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Clark
02-10-2005 7:34 PM


Re: We the People
...the 16th amendment states

I think the point most of "we don't have to pay income tax" folks take is that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified and therefore is not the law of the land and so income taxes can't be collected.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Clark, posted 02-10-2005 7:34 PM Clark has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-11-2005 10:23 AM kjsimons has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 14 of 80 (184552)
02-11-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by kjsimons
02-11-2005 10:06 AM


Re: We the People
I think the point most of "we don't have to pay income tax" folks take is that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified and therefore is not the law of the land and so income taxes can't be collected.

In that they are wrong in law since that very question was considered by SCOSUS and they ruled it was legit.

But in any case, it really is a moot point. Section 8 clause 1 of the Constitution gives Congress unlimited scope relating to taxes.

Section. 8.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by kjsimons, posted 02-11-2005 10:06 AM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by kjsimons, posted 02-11-2005 10:48 AM jar has responded

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 667
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 15 of 80 (184556)
02-11-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
02-11-2005 10:23 AM


Re: We the People
But in any case, it really is a moot point. Section 8 clause 1 of the Constitution gives Congress unlimited scope relating to taxes.

Actually it appears that:

Section. 9.

Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken. (See Note 7)

Note 7: This Clause has been affected by amendment XVI.

This was the clause superceded by Ammendment XVI, the without apportionment bit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-11-2005 10:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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