Who Owes Income Taxes?

But the US government does have authority. They have real authority. They're the very definition of "the authorities."

Nice to see the Red state guys hankerin' for a tax cut when their states are the ones that recieve, generally, the highest amount of federal money per tax dollar collected in their state.Good job, guys. Maybe we can have a tax cut when your states quit freeloading off the Blue states.

Yeah that map pretty much sums up the seething hatred I still feel for all you red state clowns handing Bush a mandate to torture, to pillage, and to gut our government's solvency and hand the proceeds to Wall Street. Good job on that, assholes. Of course, I can't wait to hear you reply, in the years to come "but we didn't know! We didn't know a vote for Bush was a vote for torture!" Bullshit. We only told you, over and over again, during the election. But you were too busy counting bullet holes on John Kerry's swift boat to pay attention.Goddamn. I'm still angry. What is it going to take to get you Republicans to wake up? George Bush thinks that you've released him from any sort of accountability for anything he's done, ever. He's said so. What do you think the next four years have in store?This message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-11-2005 12:57 AM

Hysterical?You do realize that, under tacit approval from the top levels of government, our military tortured at least 8 people to death?I'm sorry, I didn't realize that torture was only bad if it happened to people we knew. So, you haven't read the new budget, then? The one that counts on billions in revenue from ANWAR drilling? One problem with that - drilling ANWAR is currently prohibited by law, and not likely to change.This too is the budget that doesn't actually include any budget expenditures for our operations in Afghanistan or Iraq, which could amount to hundreds of billions of dollars. Actually, when you look at the President's approval ratings, they've rarely been over 50%. So, obviously, you're wrong. There weren't that many people who approved of how things have been going. There were, on the other hand, an enormous amount of people whom the GOP lie machine scared into voting against Kerry.

Yes, it's impossible. By which I mean, there's no difference between the government acting like it has authority and the government having authority. It is, however, possible for the government to exert authority over matters it is barred from doing so by the US Constitution. This is obviously not something we should allow it to do, though I'm not certain what our recourse would be if it did.They do have the guns, and the mechanisms of authority. Like the man said political power comes out of the barrel of a gun.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-12-2005 01:48 AM

Heh, not especially, no. In fact I couldn't believe my ears when I first heard of his plan. Homeland Security? Wasn't it Hitler who first coined that term, "Homeland"? Isn't that how all those dystopian-future science fiction novels start? With a shadowy government organization called "homeland security"?Could he have picked a name with more totalitarian overtones? I doubt it.

And yet the reason that no stop hs yet been put to it is because a slight majority of Americans don't seem to give a damn, and make no mistake, the Bush Administration clearly considers that "the accountability moment" for torture, a moment which has passed. You say those things like they're fact, but I found Kerry neither stiff nor uncharismatic. In fact I repeatedly observed him display far more poise and confidence than the petulant, "its hard work!", whining figure Bush became during the election. And yet, when literally that question is put to the American people, a majority assert that no, they weren't ok with the first four years.So why did the American people appear to elect a president that they didn't like much in the first go-around?

Here's John Yoo, counsel to the President and author of the legal brief that argued that the CIA and other organizations are exempt from restrictions on behaviors we would consider torture, as quoted in a piece by Jane Mayer:

quote:

---

[Yoo] went on to suggest that President Bush’s victory in the 2004 election, along with the relatively mild challenge to Gonzales mounted by the Democrats in Congress, was "proof that the debate is over." He said, "The issue is dying out. The public has had its referendum."

---

Reporting | The New YorkerHere's the President, directly:

quote:

---

We had an accountability moment, and that's called the 2004 election.

---

Now, he was speaking of his Iraq policy (which a majority of Americans don't support), but its pretty obvious that he and his staff are applying that rationale to literally every issue. The "accountability moment" has passed for this administration; a 3% victory in the election is taken as a mandate to do whatever they like. Because you said them like they were fact. Here's your exact words:

quote:

---

I can't speak for all of America, but it seems to me that Kerry's stiffness and lack of charisma had at least as much to do with his loss as any swift boat issues, and lie machines are owned and used by both political parties.

---

You didn't say "it seemed to me that Kerry was stiff and lacked charisma", you said that it seemed to you those attributes were responsible for his loss. I don't see any qualification in that statement that suggested he possessed those attributes only in your view, or anything like that.You asserted that he was stiff and uncharismatic as though it were fact; what you qualified was that those attributes were responsible for his loss. And why do you suppose that would be, given that his record in the Senate in regards to defense and the military represents a superior qualification to anything the Bush administration had to offer? Why do you suppose it was that Bush couldn't run on his own record? I mean, the only Bush campaign ad I ever saw that was about Bush's record as president was the one where he hugged the girl.You can keep acting like the American people made a reasonable choice, but the polls indicate that just isn't so. A whole lot of people voted against their own better judgement, against the facts, against every indication that a second Bush term would be bad news. We're going to have to figure out why millions of people voted against their own interests while they knew they were doing so. It sounds crazy, but the fact that a majority of the American people elected a president that only a minority actually approved of is crazy.

Just in case there was any doubt that my government is torturing people to death:AP: Iraqi Died While Hung From Wrists

quote:

---

Al-Jamadi was brought naked below the waist to the prison with a CIA interrogator and translator. A green plastic bag covered his head, and plastic cuffs tightly bound his wrists. Guards dressed al-Jamadi in an orange jumpsuit, slapped on metal handcuffs and escorted him to the shower room, a common CIA interrogation spot.

​

There, the interrogator instructed guards to attach shackles from the prisoner's handcuffs to a barred window. That would let al-Jamadi stand without pain, but if he tried to lower himself, his arms would be stretched above and behind him.

​

The documents do not make clear what happened after guards left. After about a half-hour, the interrogator called for the guards to reposition the prisoner, who was slouching with his arms stretched behind him.

​

The interrogator told guards that al-Jamadi was "playing possum" ” faking it ” and then watched as guards struggled to get him on his feet. But the guards realized it was useless.

​

"After we found out he was dead, they were nervous," Spc. Dennis E. Stevanus said of the CIA interrogator and translator. "They didn't know what the hell to do."

​

...

​

Dr. Vincent Iacopino, director of research for Physicians for Human Rights, called the hyper-extension of the arms behind the back "clear and simple torture." The European Court of Human Rights found Turkey guilty of torture in 1996 in a case of Palestinian hanging ” a technique Iacopino said is used worldwide but named for its alleged use by Israel in the Palestinian territories.

---

I don't see how you can say that, when its clear from your own statements that he feels he doesn't have to deal with it, and that heads don't have to roll.That's why I used the phrase "accountability moment." That's Bush's own words. What did you think he meant by that? Will there be accountability? That's up to us. But clearly Bush and his administration believe there is none. My guess is, because you live in Tennesee. There was little doubt who your state was going to elect; hence, little ad presence in your state. Missouri may have been the same way. I did try to keep up with the ads on the internet, though. I don't see any other explanation. The American people did not make a rational choice.

An interpretation I believe is contradicted by John Yoo's statement, specifically on the subject of torture:

quote:

---

As Yoo saw it, Congress doesn’t have the power to tie the President’s hands in regard to torture as an interrogation technique. He continued, It’s the core of the Commander-in-Chief function. They can’t prevent the President from ordering torture. If the President were to abuse his powers as Commander-in-Chief, Yoo said, the constitutional remedy was impeachment. He went on to suggest that President Bush’s victory in the 2004 election, along with the relatively mild challenge to Gonzales mounted by the Democrats in Congress, was proof that the debate is over. He said, The issue is dying out. The public has had its referendum.

---

Yoo believes that the 2004 election, plus the acceptance of Gonzales as Attourney General, means that the American people have given their imprimateur for torture by the government, and he uses the language of the president to say so. I believe this is clear indication of the administration's views on the subject - they believe that their 2004 victory is the American people absolving them of responsibility for anything that they do.You can close your eyes to this, but the evidence is pretty clear to me - we re-elected a large group of people that are interpreting that re-election as tacit approval of everything that they've done so far, and anything they might continue to do in the same vein.

I think that's a great example, because many of the taxes we pay are based entirely on that principle of "a little money now saves us a lot of money in the future." So many of the social programs conservatives decry actually save us money in the long run.

What else would you conclude when at the same time that majority re-elected the incumbent who ran on a platform of "more of what he did in the first term", a majority expressed disapproval with the decisions he had made during the first term? Combine that with the fact that, in polls that did not mention specific political candidates, a majority of Americans supported the policy goals set forth by Kerry?The polls are clear:
1) A majority of Americans disapproved of Bush's first term.
2) A majority of Americans approved the policies and positions set forth by Kerry.
3) A majority of Americans voted for Bush.Any way you slice it, that's Americans knowingly voting against their own interests. Either that, or its a massive election fraud. But there's no evidence of the latter.

Are we talking about the same O'Reilly? Bill O'Reilly? Fox News commentator and author of such books as "Who's Looking Out For You"? That guy? The one who rails against the "secularists" trying to eliminate the morals of our godly nation on every other broadcast?I have yet to see the slightest indication that he leans "leftward" on morality.

I'm starting to get the idea that his TV and radio show are very, very different. Maybe this accounts for the wildy divergent opinions we're seeing.BTW see if you can find the episode of Terry Gross's "Fresh Air", which airs on National Public Radio, where she interviewed Bill O'Reilly. I believe all her shows are archived at NPR - Breaking News, Analysis, Music, Arts & Podcasts : NPR, it's a pretty interesting listen. He storms out about halfway through.