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Author
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Topic: Jonah and the Whale.. a question.
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: 11-12-2002
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Message 16 of 71 (184729)
02-12-2005 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by boomatt
02-12-2005 2:55 PM
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Re: Hi Kam
Your first link is rather extensively debunked here: PSCF December 1991 A Whale of a Tale: Fundamentalist Fish Stories by Edward B.
Davis and the second doesn't work. Note that the ASA is an organization of evangelical Christian scientists.....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by boomatt, posted 02-12-2005 2:55 PM | | boomatt has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 17 of 71 (184744)
02-12-2005 6:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by boomatt
02-12-2005 2:55 PM
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Re: Hi Kam
I hope that you read this from the short introduction to the sermon in your second link. "Instead, you might think of it as one of the world's great satiric comedies set as a parable." It can be found at the bottom of the page here And from the sermon itself...
Some interpreters still want to hold out the possibility that Jonah could be historic fact. The International Standard Bible Dictionary, revised in 1979, still repeats the story of a whale fisher who was swallowed by a sperm whale, was saved when the whale was later killed and he was cut out of the stomach, bleached white by the whales gastric juices. This report by scholar Eduard Konig was investigated and found to be groundless. The possibility that Jonah was actually swallowed by a fish and lived is under the heading of, "since God is all powerful God could do anything." The sad part of this kind of distraction is the idea that the truth would somehow be more powerful if it had happened as an historical fact. The truth of the Jonah story is vastly more interesting and important than speculation about the possibility of anyone living in the stomach of a fish. The corrected link to that sermon is here.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by boomatt, posted 02-12-2005 2:55 PM | | boomatt has not replied |
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4014 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: 06-08-2004
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Message 18 of 71 (184752)
02-12-2005 6:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by boomatt
02-12-2005 2:32 AM
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Re: Hi Kam
Just to let you know that people have found full human skeletons inside of whales. So it can happen
You mean their prayers weren`t answered?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by boomatt, posted 02-12-2005 2:32 AM | | boomatt has not replied |
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Mespo
Member (Idle past 2905 days) Posts: 158 From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA Joined: 09-19-2002
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Message 19 of 71 (185119)
02-14-2005 12:35 PM
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Human prayers not answered...
Just to let you know that people have found full human skeletons inside of whales. So it can happen. You mean their prayers weren`t answered? ...but the whale's prayers were answered. "Would you like fries with that, Moby?" (:raig
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6943 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: 01-13-2005
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Message 20 of 71 (185168)
02-14-2005 2:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Mespo
02-14-2005 12:35 PM
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Re: Human prayers not answered...
Just came across this discussion and thought that some clarification is needed. The account in the Bible states that God prepared a great fish, not a whale. If you believe as I do that God created the universe, then it is reasonable to believe that God could alter or create a great fish to accomodate one man. This account emphasizes God's willingness to forgive those who repent and turn to Him.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Mespo, posted 02-14-2005 12:35 PM | | Mespo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-14-2005 2:54 PM | | xevolutionist has replied | | | Message 25 by Brian, posted 02-14-2005 3:09 PM | | xevolutionist has replied | | | Message 27 by Brian, posted 02-14-2005 5:40 PM | | xevolutionist has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Re: Human prayers not answered...
If you believe as I do that God created the universe, then it is reasonable to believe that God could alter or create a great fish to accomodate one man. God can pretty much do whatever he wants, right? Isn't that a kind of solipcism?
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6943 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: 01-13-2005
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Message 22 of 71 (185173)
02-14-2005 3:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
02-14-2005 2:54 PM
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God's nature
No, God can only do the things that are consistent with His nature.
He can not break His word or lie, for instance.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-14-2005 2:54 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4979 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 23 of 71 (185174)
02-14-2005 3:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by boomatt
02-12-2005 2:32 AM
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Must be true then!
Hi
Just to let you know that people have found full human skeletons inside of whales. So it can happen Did it not occur to you that finding human skeletons inside a whale, which 'they' haven't, actually negates the Jonah story? You should learn how to support a claim with some references as well, it would save a lot of time. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by boomatt, posted 02-12-2005 2:32 AM | | boomatt has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Something greater than God!
This is off-topic, I know, but if God cannot lie doesn't this mean that there is something greater than God, something that transcends God himself? Does morality transcend God? If so, where does morality come from?
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4979 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Re: Human prayers not answered...
This account emphasizes God's willingness to forgive those who repent and turn to Him. No it doesn't, it presents a story that completely kills off the 'Free will defence'. The Nineveh of the 'fishy tale' and the real Nineveh are two different places. The Jonah tale is a campfire story that tries to present how forgiving Yahweh is, but it is ultimately a load of tripe. Brian.
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Re: God's nature
No, God can only do the things that are consistent with His nature. If they were inconsistent with his nature, why would he want to do them?
He can not break His word or lie, for instance. Why would he want to do those things? What I meant was, God can do anything in the universe he chooses to, right? Regardless of the physical constraints in the universe? If that's so, how is that not solipcism? How can we know if anything is true about the universe if God can alter things at will?
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4979 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Re: Human prayers not answered...
KJV Matthew 12:40
The account in the Bible states that God prepared a great fish, not a whale. Well, according to the perfect KJV Bible, Jesus himself believed that it was a whale. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So what's going on? Has history's greatest liar told another lie, or has Jesus made yet another mistake, or does the KJV contain an error? Or, is it all three, and the Old Testament actually says 'sea creature', which could be something other than a fish or a whale?
If you believe as I do that God created the universe, then it is reasonable to believe that God could alter or create a great fish to accomodate one man. If we believe as you do then any old nonsense could be possible, why bother even thinking about it? Brian.
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6943 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: 01-13-2005
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Re: Something greater than God!
I should have said that God will not lie. Being the source of good, He will not do anything which is contrary to His nature. God is the one who defines morality. Without a standard of morality, everyone does what they deem to be right for themselves. This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-15-2005 12:07 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Chiroptera, posted 02-14-2005 3:06 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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AdminJar
Inactive Member
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Re: Something greater than God!
That is why Hitler embraced the theory of evolution. It gave him the right to improve the human race by exterminating the Jews. I think we need to nip this in the bud. According to Hitler he was acting on Christian principles and beliefs in exterminating Jews. So unless you want a bunch of direct quotes from Herr Hitler showing that it was an act of Christianity, just drop it.
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Re: Something greater than God!
quote:
God is the one who defines morality.
So are you now saying that morality is completely arbitrary? That the most powerful people get to determine right and wrong? And it's only by virtue that God is the most powerful being, and so he gets to set the rules? That sounds like thugocracy, with God as the ultimate thug. Having a being define morality simply because it is the most powerful doesn't really define morality. After all, morality is about right from wrong, but saying that God defines the rules doesn't explain why we should consider those rules right.
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