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Author Topic:   Cells into Organs: could it evolve?
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 39 (185374)
02-14-2005 10:37 PM


My question to evolutionists is as follows;
I have read much about evolution and understand the cellular theory, but I can't seem to find an answer to this question; if single celled organisms evolved into multi cellular organisms, that is cellular chains, when and how did each and every cell give up the, "every cell for himself" way of life and start relying on certain cells to do certain jobs for the good of the whole? An example of this in humans is organs and blood. Only the digestive organs provide nourishment to the rest of the body, and only the blood cells can deliver oxygen to every other cell in the body. Did the simple multi-cellular creatures pass out sign up lists for each cell to do something that benefits and helps the rest of the organism to survive?
I think that if this question goes unanswered, it could really become one of TTOE's weaknesses. ---- And before anyone here gets started, let me also point out that without a digestive system, every cell in the human body would die. Without blood cells to deliver oxygen, every human cell would die. It's ALMOST an irreducibly complex system of organs.
So HOW and WHEN did, according to evolution, cells abandon the "every cell for himself" doctrine and start the "all for one, and one for all" doctrine? (if you get my point)

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Sylas, posted 02-15-2005 1:09 AM LDSdude has replied
 Message 4 by Wounded King, posted 02-15-2005 5:02 AM LDSdude has not replied
 Message 5 by Brad McFall, posted 02-15-2005 3:30 PM LDSdude has not replied
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 02-15-2005 4:09 PM LDSdude has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-15-2005 6:48 PM LDSdude has replied
 Message 8 by Quetzal, posted 02-15-2005 8:45 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 39 (185945)
02-16-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
02-15-2005 6:48 PM


Depends, do you get my question?
quote:
If you could see an example of something like that happening today would that help? If someone could point to an example where a single cell organism then splits and the different cells begin to specialize so that they are entirely different would it ease your understanding?
______________________________________________________________________
Depends. Remember that I'm talking about uses to the multi-celled organism that are not merely beneficial, but are NEEDED for survival. If all you're talking about is an example that shows where the cells are still working for themselves, then your example would not help answer the question. Whatever the example is, it has to have a situation where certain cells will only perform a few of the tasks they would need to survive, and would rely on other cells to accomplish the rest of the tasks it needs to survive. So it IS kind of like irreducible complexity.
As I mentioned earlier, that is how human beings bodies operate. Certain organs perform only certain tasks. Like the heart. It uses blood to pump oxygen to the rest of the body. But without the rest of the body (like if you just set a lone heart lying on the pavement), it would definately die. I guess the key word in all of this is SYSTEM. An irreducebly complex system of cells or organs working for the whole instead of themselves.
I bet you have the idea by now, but if not, compare it to this: Countries trading. One country might have lots of water but little farmland to grow food on. Another country might have lots of land but little drinking water. If the two countries trade water for food, both survive. But if not, both die. They are DEPENDANT on one another for survival. I still can't see how this could have arisen in cells, Crashfrog.
fixed quote tags, square brackets are used not parentheses - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-16-2005 15:53 AM

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 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-15-2005 6:48 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Sylas, posted 02-16-2005 5:14 PM LDSdude has not replied
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LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 39 (185952)
02-16-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Sylas
02-15-2005 1:09 AM


two different things, Sylas
Sylas, I reviewed your example(thanks by the way), and I think you're comparing two different things. The reason is becuase the cells in Dictyostelium discoideum are working together, not for eachother. This is just what I warned about at the end of my very first post in this topic. Each and every cell in this "slug" is not dependant on the other cells to live. They come together to work together, but they are not required to do so for survival.
Your example also branches off to a different subject that still proves my point. It is naturally programmed into these cells to form together in order to reproduce most effectively. If this 'evolved', tell me how! Did once along time ago some of these dying cells happen to form into this little slug? If they did, how did their offspring figure it out also later on? Then THEIR offspring would have to figure it out, and then THEIR offspring would, and so on, and so on until it somehow became part of their instinct. How?
Wait, wait. I'm already digressing form the main subject. We would have to open another topic to answer these other crucial questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Sylas, posted 02-15-2005 1:09 AM Sylas has replied

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LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 39 (186395)
02-17-2005 8:48 PM


okay, small little shift here then....
quote:
______________________________________________________________________Species evolve by accumulation of change. There is no question of "figuring out" anything. Living creatures just do their thing. Some survive, and some don't. This is due mostly the vagaries of fortune; a predator happens by, food runs out, a tree falls in the forest and sets up a suitable environment. But there is also a contribution of how well adapted living things are to take advantage of opportunity or to surmount obstacles
______________________________________________________________________
You are right that there is no "figuring out", and that is my point. Cells such as these slugs do not grow up with the ability to observe and then immitate their parents. Turning into this slug is then an obvious instinct which all of the examples I have been given show.
I hate to deviate on this, but I think you should understand what I'm saying.
My question was how did this process of turning into a slug become instinct to the cells? This slug(and also the algae fish) are quite complex little animals which require all of their parts to operate(more irreducible complexity... man, it's everywhere, isn't it?). They could not have evolved through slow changes over time. And even if one colony somehow defied Darwin's wildest dreams and accomplished it, it's an action, not a gene.
For example, if you do something, unless your kids can observe it and mimmick it, they might never know how to do it. Just becuase you did it doesn't mean it's going to become part of your DNA and your kids well naturally do it in their lifetimes. Cells like these don't have the ability to observe on that high level. They don't have the ability to LEARN.
So somehow these cells attained within their DNA the ability to naturally turn into an irreducibly complex organism. (According to evolution). And I'd like an explanation(if you aren't too busy).
Thanks for all the examples, people. But although they answered my first questions, in a way, they just raise more. Since this topic is still young I'm going to go ahead and add this question of instinct of turning into "organs" to the whole topic, seeing as they both relate very well.
I asked how cells stopped working for themselves and started working for the whole---you gave me examples---I'm asking now how the trait is passed on.
I think that somes it up pretty well.
fixed quote tags, changed parens to brackets - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-17-2005 19:54 AM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by Wounded King, posted 02-18-2005 2:25 AM LDSdude has not replied

  
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