Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 196 of 316 (185690)
02-15-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 8:21 AM


regurgitation
you mean to go back to all the points your raised that had nothing to do with the essay? the one full of misconceptions? that one?
the one answered by
http://EvC Forum: Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
that one?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 8:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:53 PM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 197 of 316 (185691)
02-15-2005 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 8:22 AM


Re: whose womb is it anyway?
so
some bum moves into your house, eats your food, sleeps in your bed, watches tv all day and well into the night.
it's okay:
It is necessary for it's survival and it is a natural course of life.
and, once again ...
a person who is dead and on life support
is an oxymoronic statement.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 8:22 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:50 PM RAZD has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 198 of 316 (185700)
02-15-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by nator
02-15-2005 9:27 AM


Re: Missed Point
What about the people who's birth control failed?
Birth control is a risk that you take, they shouldn't screw then.
What about married people who get pregnant by accident?
What about people who bungie jump, and the cord breaks?
What about people who want to get pregnant but once they do, their life circumstances drastically change for the worse?
They get stuck with a kid.
There are no pregnancies with "no apparent risk", riverrat. The ALL increase the risk to a woman's health.
ALL of them.
That is my point.
Life is full of risks, some of them are avoidable.
Why is that any of your business, and why does it matter?
Ok, thats it. Who the heck are you to tell ask me if thats any of my business. It's everyone's business, especially the rights of the unborn, and especially since it's people like me that vote on laws the govern that sort of thing.
THIS IS AMERICA.
Didn't you mention that a woman you were with years ago had an abortion?
Maybe you should show her that little story you wrote and ask her if that was pretty much what she said when she went for her abortion.
See, you missed my whole freakin point of telling that story. I initiated the idea of abortion, not her. She agreed to it. In retrospect, from the second after it happened till this very day it hurts me inside. I went with her, and supported her. She was emotionally screwd up from the whole experience, and so am I. It's a pain that wil never go away.
I did it, because today's soceity let's you do it, and it is widely accepted. We got no consuling, or were we fore warned of what might happen to us psychologically. Now that I have a relationship with God, I can say it was from the devil. The whole thing was so dark, and upsetting.
You on the other hand should not speak about it unless you have been through it, and just don't care.
You are insensitive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by nator, posted 02-15-2005 9:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Silent H, posted 02-16-2005 5:06 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 208 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 8:05 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 210 by Asgara, posted 02-16-2005 8:22 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 199 of 316 (185702)
02-15-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by nator
02-15-2005 9:27 AM


Re: Missed Point
Thanks for the insight into the warped fantasy world you anti-abortion people have to live in in order to feel so self righteous.
My little fictional story was based on what your saying, not what I'm saying. Thats your side of the story, not mine. That's the logic you are presenting here, not mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by nator, posted 02-15-2005 9:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 8:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 200 of 316 (185704)
02-15-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by RAZD
02-15-2005 10:09 PM


Re: whose womb is it anyway?
So stop right there, and explain the logic in comparing a fetus with a bum. That's histerical, this world sucks.
and, once again ...
a person who is dead and on life support
is an oxymoronic statement.
It's a true statement, and the reason why the Legal death act was made in the first place. If you researched it, and tried to understand it, you might know that. I think I even taught you a little about it here in this thread.
It's a completely logical statement, unlike comparing life support to a umbilical cord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2005 10:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2005 8:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 201 of 316 (185705)
02-15-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by RAZD
02-15-2005 9:59 PM


Re: regurgitation
Um you answered nothing, just a bunch of empty opinions, and illogical answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2005 9:59 PM RAZD has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 202 of 316 (185724)
02-15-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-29-2005 9:52 AM


I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with the premature baby information. I know I was premature, wasn't supposed to live, lived. Then I was supposed to be confined to a wheel chair because I had paralysis on the entire right side of myself. I made it though. I'm normal as far as I can tell. I think babies should have a chance to livre, give them the benefit of the doubt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2005 9:52 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2005 8:05 PM Trump won has replied

daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 316 (185728)
02-16-2005 12:02 AM


It is sad that we casually abandon potential lives that could change ours. Ray Charles was blind and is musical legend. If Ray's mom would have known that he would have been blind would she have said "Ya know, I don't think it'd be right to let my baby suffer like that, I think I'll abort him." It's not even letting life, perhaps legitimate, get a chance at life.

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2005 1:27 AM daaaaaBEAR has not replied
 Message 205 by kongstad, posted 02-16-2005 4:53 AM daaaaaBEAR has not replied
 Message 213 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 8:41 AM daaaaaBEAR has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 204 of 316 (185740)
02-16-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by daaaaaBEAR
02-16-2005 12:02 AM


If Ray's mom would have known that he would have been blind would she have said "Ya know, I don't think it'd be right to let my baby suffer like that, I think I'll abort him."
Oh? You asked her?
What if Osama bin Laden's mom had said the same thing? Or John Wayne Gacy's mom? Or Hitler's? Who knows how many lives abortions have saved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-16-2005 12:02 AM daaaaaBEAR has not replied

kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 205 of 316 (185752)
02-16-2005 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by daaaaaBEAR
02-16-2005 12:02 AM


Well if ray Charles had been aborted then he wouldn't have been. So the world would have lost nothing.
By your argument a woman should be pregnant all the time - because every possible pregnancy could possibly result in a Ray Charles.
The fetus could possibly be a person and possibly be a Ray Charles (or Charles Manson) - but if the fetus is aborted - then it is not a Ray Charles or Charles Manson that is aborted - only the fetus - because IT IS NOT YET ANYTHING ELSE BUT A FETUS!
/Soren

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by daaaaaBEAR, posted 02-16-2005 12:02 AM daaaaaBEAR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2005 12:13 PM kongstad has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 206 of 316 (185753)
02-16-2005 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Missed Point
Birth control is a risk that you take, they shouldn't screw then.
Okay, so you are saying that a parent is responsible for the death of a child when they send the child out to play in the front yard, and the kid gets hit by a car that went out of control?
You see that is quite comparable. If you have practiced a reasonable amount of precaution, and so it is an accident which is beyond one's control that causes something to occur, that usually absolves people of responsibility.
Otherwise they might as well put you in a lead box at birth and keep you there. Everything contains risks. Guilt should be established by intentional actions or gross negligence.
What about people who bungie jump, and the cord breaks?
What about people who climb mountains and an accident occurs which means there is too much weight on the rope to hold everyone attached to it? It is permissable to cut the line.
Life is full of risks, some of them are avoidable.
Yes, in order to risk the possibility of death or other severe injuries related to pregnancy, a woman avoids this by having an abortion.
If pregnancy was a snap, it is unlikely women would have abortions at all.
It's everyone's business, especially the rights of the unborn
Check the constitution and any state law, I doubt you will find anything, except perhaps recently, granting rights to the unborn. We certainly do not have certificates of live unbirth. Indeed, why do you think we have certificates of LIVE BIRTH?
I did it, because today's soceity let's you do it, and it is widely accepted. We got no consuling, or were we fore warned of what might happen to us psychologically. Now that I have a relationship with God, I can say it was from the devil.
So first you blame society and then you blame the devil. How about taking back the locus of control. You made some mistake while having sex, you made a quick and not well thought through decision on what to do with the result of your first mistake. Having given it more thought your decision was not the right one for you. Great, now you have learned your lesson.
No one is telling you how you have to live and what decisions you have to make, however you are advocating what others must do with their lives because you do not like the decision you made.
Life is not just full of risks, it is full of diverse vantage points on a subject. Get used to it.
You are insensitive.
I will repeat, it is the "fetuses are unborn babies that will live if you just give them the chance" and "if you put your trust in God then the risks the doctor says are there will be taken care of" are much more insensitive to couples facing the uncertainty of pregnancy, than anything schraf said to you.
By the way, I'm not sure how wait you guys waited to have the abortion, but how can you be certain it was going to be born at all, or that the girl would have survived pregnancy? It is only from the safety of having made that decision, which allows you to pretend everything was going to be great for it and her.
This is not to suggest that you should change your opinion for the future. It sounds like abortion is not an appropriate choice for you. But perhaps you can console yourself with the past by realizing that you have learned your moral "error" and both of you are alive and (I assume) well. If she had the kid, it may not have been so, and maybe you'd be telling us how you had made the mistake of convincing your gf to have a baby which killed her.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 02-16-2005 6:58 AM Silent H has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 207 of 316 (185764)
02-16-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Silent H
02-16-2005 5:06 AM


Re: Missed Point
Guilt should be established by intentional actions or gross negligence.
Sex is an intentional act, execpt when it isn't and that's when I feel abortion is ok.
Can we do anything in life without some sort of repercussion?
Is it our right to sex without having to have repercussion?
Check out this quote:
Julius Fogel, MD, a psychiatrist and abortionist who
has been a long-time advocate for abortion and has personally performed over
20,000 abortions feels that a significantly higher percentage of women are
affected by abortion. He states (in Rearden, 1996):
Every woman, whatever her age, background or sexuality, has a trauma at
destroying a pregnancy. A level of humanness is touched. This is a part of her
own life. When she destroys a pregnancy, she is destroying herself. There is no
way it can be innocuous. One is dealing with the life force. It is totally beside
the point whether or not you think a life is there. You cannot deny that
something is being created and that this creation is physically happening ...
Often the trauma may sink into the unconscious and never surface in the
woman's lifetime. But it is not as harmless and casual an event as many in the
pro-abortion crowd insist. A psychological price is paid [and this author
believes that a spiritual price is paid]. It may be alienation; it may be a pushing away from human warmth, perhaps a hardening of the maternal instinct.
Something happens on the deeper levels of a woman's consciousness when she
destroys a pregnancy.
That quote was from this page,
http://www.rachelshope.org/aftermath.html
I haven't finished reading it, but it is interesting, and it confirms everything my fiance, and I even felt when we went through it.
So if you want to talk about guilt, let's talk about that guilt of destroying a pregnacy.
What about people who climb mountains and an accident occurs which means there is too much weight on the rope to hold everyone attached to it? It is permissable to cut the line.
Another missed point, missed logic. In both cases, if they weren't doing something so risky, they wouldn't have to make a decsion like that. They knew very well what would happen when doing those sort of things.
It's so funny in country full of liability lawsuits, and claims, and everybody seems to be liable for everything these days, that men and woman are not liable for getting pregnant.
If I get behind the wheel of a car drunk, because it feels good, and kill someone with my car, am I not liable?
Even better yet, If I fall asleep, and kill someone, in some states you are now liable. All I wanted to do was go for a ride, or get home, and not realize how tired I was, but I am liable.
Yes, in order to risk the possibility of death or other severe injuries related to pregnancy, a woman avoids this by having an abortion.
So then, she shouldn't screw.
If pregnancy was a snap, it is unlikely women would have abortions at all.
So tell me, the real reason that woman have abortions is because they don't want to go through the risk of pregnacy?
That goes back to my fictional story based on that kind of thinking.
Show me some numbers, back up your claim. Tell how many, or what percentage of women have abortions because they don't mind having kids, but just don't want to risk the pregnacy. How many woman immediatly after having an abortion go out and adopt a child?
That's such a BS statement and you know it.
Check the constitution and any state law, I doubt you will find anything, except perhaps recently, granting rights to the unborn. We certainly do not have certificates of live unbirth. Indeed, why do you think we have certificates of LIVE BIRTH?
Oh really? Well I have asked a lot of people this question: If you and your wife were trying to have a baby, and someone attacked your wife, and killed your unborn child, would you want that person tried for murder.
Everyone so far has answered yes.
Check out what happen to this woman:
http://www.themediaproject.com/news/itn/012803.htm
So yes, I would say the unborn have rights.
It becomes a question of personhood, and medical reasons, or rape when abortion should be ok.
We seem to agree on the medical reasons to an extent, and the rape part, but personhood we disagree. That is why I attack RAZD's usage of the legal death act to help describe personhood. The two cannot be compare for this arguements sake, and is no true indication of personhood.
How about taking back the locus of control. You made some mistake while having sex
Wow dude, I can't believe you said that. Are you a hypocrite?
That's the way I was raised. Yes I take responsibility for my actions, and I pay the price to this day for it. But it was a result of my schooling, and what my parents taught me.
What do they teach in schools these days? Safe sex, thats what. In other words it's ok to have sex.
She was on birth control, so we weren't taking any risks? Right?
Great, now you have learned your lesson.
A lesson that I put out in the public, that we all can learn from it. I didn't put it out there, or expose my most personal things so that people could ridicule me. If you do, then your not helpful to either the situation of abortion, or helping my personal feelings. It is also not conducive to intelligent conversation. But what should I expect from a bunch of people who do not believe in God or souls, or life. (I am not refering to you specifically, unless you feel guilty of it).
you think it was easy to come out and say that to a bunch of strangers? Not one person here has express one concern of caring for my feelings on that. How humane....
No one is telling you how you have to live and what decisions you have to make, however you are advocating what others must do with their lives because you do not like the decision you made.
Oh how true, we are never responsible for anything.
That's another BS statement, because it seems to go against the way we form every rule in this life.
So we should stop telling people to not drink and drive, because its none of thier business what could happen if they do?
This is not to suggest that you should change your opinion for the future. It sounds like abortion is not an appropriate choice for you. But perhaps you can console yourself with the past by realizing that you have learned your moral "error" and both of you are alive and (I assume) well. If she had the kid, it may not have been so, and maybe you'd be telling us how you had made the mistake of convincing your gf to have a baby which killed her.
Yes that's reality, but it doesn't alieviate me or her from being responsible for the act of having sex, or getting pregnant. You seem to talk from both sides of your mouth.
So just what are the numbers? How many woman who seem to have an other wise normal pregnancy die from child birth?
And if this life is supposed to be pro-choice, and woman are well aware of the risks of pregnancy, why would they screw?
Our soceity is broken, that's my opinion, and we are putting a big band-aid on something that is not going to heal.
It goes back to my comparing what I do for a living, I fix heaters (thats one of the things I do) So if your pilot kept going out after every heat cycle, and I came over your house, what would you have me do?
Light the pilot, so that the burner can cycle one more time and heat the house, or fix the pilot so it stays lit?
Is, there a word to describe that way of thinking, because I thinks it logical to fix the root of the problem, instead of the symptoms.
Tell me thats not logical, I dare you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Silent H, posted 02-16-2005 5:06 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 8:28 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 212 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 8:37 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 215 by Silent H, posted 02-16-2005 12:43 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 219 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2005 8:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 208 of 316 (185777)
02-16-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Missed Point
What about the people who's birth control failed?
quote:
Birth control is a risk that you take, they shouldn't screw then.
So, married people who don't ever want to have children or are not sure if they want to have children should never, ever have sex?
Is that seriously what you are suggesting?
What about married people who get pregnant by accident?
quote:
What about people who bungie jump, and the cord breaks?
You are suggesting that we provide no medical care to the people who's bungie cord breaks. You would let them lie there, broken and bleeding, and not offer them help, because they took the risk and if something unexpected happend, it's their own damn fault, right?
Also, can you please explain how bungie jumping is a normal biological drive for all people, similar to eating or having sex?
What about people who want to get pregnant but once they do, their life circumstances drastically change for the worse?
quote:
They get stuck with a kid.
Or, they dump the newborn in a dumpster, or just left outside somewhere, possibly on a doorstep.
Is infantacide better, because that is what will happen. That's what we see in countries where abortion and family planning services
are nonexistent or illegal.
There are no pregnancies with "no apparent risk", riverrat. The ALL increase the risk to a woman's health.
ALL of them.
That is my point.
quote:
Life is full of risks, some of them are avoidable.
Agreed.
However, the risks to a woman's health from carrying a pregnancy to term, giving birth, and postpartum are far greater than the risks she takes when she gets an early-term abortion.
Why is that any of your business, and why does it matter?
quote:
Ok, thats it. Who the heck are you to tell ask me if thats any of my business. It's everyone's business,
Every woman's body is your business? Everyone's business?
Since when?
quote:
especially the rights of the unborn, and especially since it's people like me that vote on laws the govern that sort of thing.
THIS IS AMERICA.
Yes, this is America, where our RIGHTS are not dictated by the majority.
Our RIGHTS are specifically designed to protect the minority from the "tyrrany of the majority."
Of course, this argument of yours would completely backfire on you, as a majority of Americans are supportive of legalized abortion.
Didn't you mention that a woman you were with years ago had an abortion?
Maybe you should show her that little story you wrote and ask her if that was pretty much what she said when she went for her abortion.
quote:
See, you missed my whole freakin point of telling that story. I initiated the idea of abortion, not her. She agreed to it. In retrospect, from the second after it happened till this very day it hurts me inside. I went with her, and supported her. She was emotionally screwd up from the whole experience, and so am I. It's a pain that wil never go away.
Life is full of of risks, isn't it Riverrat? Isn't that what you've been telling me?
You and the woman you got pregnant made a CHOICE, didn't you? You made your bed and are having trouble lying in it, but it was YOUR CHOICE, and that was the risk you took.
Other people make that choice and they do not feel the same way afterwords as you do. They do not regret it.
Who are you to project your reactions to YOUR CHOICE on to every other person in the US?
quote:
I did it, because today's soceity let's you do it, and it is widely accepted.
Yes, but you had a CHOICE. Nobody forced you, did they?
quote:
We got no consuling, or were we fore warned of what might happen to us psychologically.
Counselling would have been preferred at the time, to be sure, but what is stopping you now?
They don't really warn you when you get pregnant of what might happen to you psychologically when you give birth and start to raise a child, either.
quote:
Now that I have a relationship with God, I can say it was from the devil. The whole thing was so dark, and upsetting.
Of course it's was "from the devil". Everything bad or upsetting is "from the devil" and everything wonderful and good is "from God".
I know the drill by now.
quote:
You on the other hand should not speak about it unless you have been through it, and just don't care.
You are insensitive.
I am a woman, riverrat.
I have imagined myself in that position many, many times, and I have several friends who have had abortions.
I am sorry that you feel like you made the wrong choice at that time, but just because that was the wrong choice FOR YOU doesn't give you the right to decide it is the wrong choice for everybody.
How many unwanted babies have you adopted or fostered?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-16-2005 08:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 7:11 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 316 (185781)
02-16-2005 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 10:46 PM


Re: Missed Point
quote:
My little fictional story was based on what your saying, not what I'm saying. Thats your side of the story, not mine. That's the logic you are presenting here, not mine.
No, your story was a gross caricature of my position.
It was a warped version of my position that you have constructed in order to feel self righteous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 7:19 AM nator has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 210 of 316 (185782)
02-16-2005 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Missed Point
You on the other hand should not speak about it unless you have been through it, and just don't care.
You would prefer to talk to someone that has had an abortion? What would you like to discuss? How about the "fact" that your experience was nothing like mine so how can your opinion on it overrule mine?

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 10:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 7:21 AM Asgara has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024