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Author Topic:   "In the end there must have been a creator"
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 69 (185744)
02-16-2005 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
02-15-2005 11:43 PM


Re: Hypothetical for you
What you going to tell him?
Just hypothetical.
Hypothetical for you: One day you die and you're surprised to find yourself before the Mighty Wicker Throne of Zongo, a little-known god worshipped only by a band of pygmies in deepest Africa. Turns out that this guy is the creator of the universe, all the other gods were fairy tales, and he's none-too-happy to see yet another jerk-off from Earth who has never heard of him.
What are you going to tell him? Just hypothetical(ly).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 02-15-2005 11:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 02-16-2005 6:09 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 69 (185847)
02-16-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
02-16-2005 6:09 AM


Re: Hypothetical for you
Funny you answered, I wasn't talking to you.
Then you should have sent an email. Or, after almost 1700 posts, have you still not noticed this is a public forum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 02-16-2005 6:09 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 69 (186419)
02-17-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Lizard Breath
02-17-2005 7:31 PM


Re: Grasping
This message can be differentiated from the millions of pseudo-holy documents that have been produced by observing that it pontificates outside the boundries of space/time which no part of the Creation can do.
No, they all do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-17-2005 7:31 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 69 (186420)
02-17-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Lizard Breath
02-17-2005 8:20 PM


Re: Keystrokes
How many times will you get a document that makes sense?
Open a dictionary and point to a word. How many times will you point at a word that you know the definition of?
If it's a Chinese dictionary, that is.
You picked the ultimate bad example, because language is the ultimate example of context-sensitive encoding. A better example would have been - generate a random polypeptide from any number of amino residues. How likely is it to exhibit some useful property? The answer, according to people smarter than I, is one in 10^11.
So do that about a million trillion times, and then select out the ones that are useful. How many useful proteins will you have? A fuck-ton. That's how evolution works. We generate a lot of shit at random, including, very, very rarely, something that works better; and then we throw out everything that doesn't work. Variation is expanded randomly in all directions; then variation is contracted in specific directions.
It's so elegant, it has to work. It's impossible for it not to work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-17-2005 8:20 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 69 (186521)
02-18-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Lizard Breath
02-18-2005 5:39 AM


Re: Keystrokes
First off, the words in the dictinary are already arranged in order - by someone.
I hand you a Chinese dictionary, and a similarly-formatted list of randomized Chinese characters of equal length.
Can you tell the difference?
The meaning of the dictionary doesn't exist in the dictionary. It exists, or doesn't exist, in your head. Similarly, there's no "meaning" in DNA. All it does is put amino acids in a row, based on the laws of physics. We might look at genetic sequence and associate it with its protein product; in doing so we might say that the sequence means that protein, but that is a mistake. The sequence does that protein. It doesn't mean that protein.
There's no meaning in DNA, therefore talking about meaning is a non-sequiter.
I find it more plausible that a massive infussion of intellegence was nessessary to both get it all started and to continously guide the process.
Yet this is impossible, because the only intelligence known to exist in the universe is human, and we weren't around at the time. Once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
But what's even better is that evolution isn't improbable; in fact, it's inevitable. We know it happens because we observe it; but moreover, it's impossible for it not to happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-18-2005 5:39 AM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-18-2005 4:43 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 67 of 69 (186602)
02-18-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Lizard Breath
02-18-2005 4:43 PM


Re: Keystrokes
There has to be an agreed upon context to give meaning to the words.
Yes. And its that context, rather than an inherent property that the words possess, that control which sequences are meaningful and which are not.
DNA, on the other hand, is the reverse. All DNA sequences are equally meaningful; they generate proteins based on inherent properties of their physical structure, not through being interpreted by thinking beings. A Chinese dictionary only has meaning to a human mind that speaks Chinese. But DNA creates proteins in the absence of thought or context.
The one's and zero's didn't do the calculating. The intellegence behind the design of the CPU and the machine language did it.
Huh? You're saying that my CPU isn't doing any math at all; it's all being done by engineers at AMD? That's foolishness.
The complexity of the arrangement of the proteins in DNA dwarfs any human machine code.
Yes, absolutely. It's so complex, in fact, that it can't possibly be intelligently designed. Only evolution can generate that level of complexity.
It's in the arrangement that I believe shows evidence for Intellegent Design.
And its the arrangement that proves that its anything but.

This message is a reply to:
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