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Author Topic:   the day the lord died
John
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 29 (18126)
09-24-2002 10:09 AM


The following is a copy/paste from another thread where I have been discussing the crucifiction with Wordswordsman. I've been feeling guilty about derailing the topic so.... viola!

[quote][b]had aleady read that site and found their Wednesday crucifixion scenario to match up with other sources. Jesus could certainly have not been buried until Wednesday sunset, and he could have resurrected at sunset Saturday, the end of the sabbath, being available Sunday morning for Mary to encounter, leaving no partial night to deal with. Like the Blue Letter site says, it isn't stated, but there is no room for critics to say the days and nights don't add up. The tradition of accepting Friday as the crucifixion day is not a reflection of what the Bible reports, the error being in the chosen day if there is error, not in the Bible.

Notice they leave out the fact that Joseph asked for and obtained the body of Jesus late afternoon towards evening or after dark, being Thursday night anytime after sunset. Joseph first asked at even, then Pilate had the body delivered. That had to take some time. He was evidently buried Thursday night, not Wednesday afternoon. I get that from the Greek for "even" in Mt. 27:57, from Gr. opsios; late; feminine (as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve) :- even (-ing, [-tide]).

Another point not considered was that Joseph had rolled a stone across the tomb that evening, leaving the two Marys on 'guard', part of their proper grieving. The next day the Jews got Pilate to set a Roman guard there which sealed the stone, so Mary's subsequent visits would have been prevented, unable to get past the stone. Besides, the burial was hasty and it wasn't reasonable for Mary to have the oils on hand for anointing the body so soon, and there was the problem of the next day being an automatic sabbath following the Passover. She might have obtained the oils quickly, but couldn't have used them until finding the guard gone. So the normal non sabbath day of Friday would not have been useful for her, being also prohibited from travelling or working on both Thursday and Saturday, leaving only Sunday as the first possible day she could maybe gain entrance, knowing eventually the guard would leave. Had she not been able to gain entrance by then the law would have prevented her touching the corruption of the 4th day. Jesus avoided that, saving Mary the daunting task of dealing with a body that would soon stink. Upon her arrival she found Jesus already out of the grave.

In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover. However, the day following Passover is a Holy Day with much the same rules as on the Sabbath. Your explaination therefore holds, with one minor change of detail. What is curious to me in light of this is why would this day be represented as the Sabbath by Jews, as any first hand witnesses would have been?

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www.hells-handmaiden.com


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-27-2002 7:19 AM John has responded
 Message 9 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-29-2002 4:50 PM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 29 (18428)
09-27-2002 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Wordswordsman
09-27-2002 7:19 AM


quote:
WS: Orthodox Jew, Reformed, other?

Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very.

quote:
The lady demonstrates ignorance of the topic, though, besides probably not observing Passover week biblically.

Not likely as ignorant of Jewish tradition as yourself. Don't insult my friends.

quote:
According to Exodus 12 every Feast day was a Sabbath or an High Day.

I don't get this from the reading. Looks to me like the first and the seventh day are holy days, but not those days in between. My reading is better for you, actually, because during the crucifixion week the trial of Christ took place on those days between the first and seventh. If, as you say, all seven days were High days, no Jews would have been out and about being political.

quote:
This meant that the Passover month or week that there was an extra Sabbath besides the weekly Sabbath. That should explain to your satisfaction the Sabbath or High Day that occurred in the week of Christ's crucifixion.

You haven't addressed the question. I don't dispute that there was an extra Holy Day that week. I stated so in my initial post.

In Exodus, the day in in question is refered to as quodesh migra' not as a sabbath. Why would a Jew describe it as such? This is what is curious to me about the tale.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-27-2002 7:19 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-28-2002 7:29 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 29 (18472)
09-28-2002 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Wordswordsman
09-28-2002 7:29 AM


quote:
WS: If she pracices anything not commanded in Exodus, she is not orthodox.

WS, you are not paying attention. It is very frustrating. The lady I asked is non-practising. The rabbi I will ask is orthodox.

quote:
Singing psaltries and reclining or sitting to eat the Passover meal are recent changes, as is omission of details concerning the lamb. Anythng more or less than the original commandment is a departure from orthodox judaism.

And your point is to discredit my source? Why not just address the issue.

quote:
WS: I have no doubt she would be expert concerning what Jews practice now, but I find it extremely rare that any follow biblical mandate.

Another attempt to discredit my aquaintance?

quote:
Animal sacrifice was ended long ago.

Animal sacrifice ended because the Romans destroyed the last Jewish temple, thereby breaking the priestly tradition.

quote:
If your friend is a recognized Rabbi, published, then her testimony would be considered.

Gee, my friend is an interior designer. However, Rabbi Lubovich is a Rabbi, but I have yet to have to speak with him on this. As I explained, it is a holiday and I am not going to bother him until the holiday is over.

quote:
Otherwise it's wise to accept the testimonies of people who are considered experts.

Interesting... I shall remember this statement.

quote:
Hers would be just her opinion unless sanctioned by her peers.

Yet your opinion of her tradition is somehow valid? Very strange indeed.

quote:
There are plenty of Jewish webites to draw from without having to resort to amateur opinions.

Right.... cause one can believe everything on the web.

quote:
WS: All seven days were a holy convocation

'k. Not disputed.

quote:
The first day of the feast as the first of two actual high days. That one coincided with the regular weekly sabbath, making that particular feast having three sabbath days.

What? You need to explain what you mean here. I see only two Sabbath days. The first is the weekly Sabbath and also the first day of the feast-- note that you said the first corresponds with the regular weekly Sabbath--, and the second would be the Sabbath of the last day of the feast.

quote:
But the entire feast was a sabbath rest.

Did you not say:

quote:
...though only the first was required of all males once a year to appear in Jerusalem. Aftr that day they wee free to return to their duties.

The two statements are contradictory. You cannot have both a Sabbath rest and a return to duties.

quote:
The second day was no subject to sabath day ruls, being the official opening of the beginning of the harvest.

And again? Does this not conflict with the entire holiday being a Sabbath rest?

quote:
Jesus was crucified the day before the weekly regular sabbath, not allowed by law to remain on the cross into the sabbath day.

Then he did not rise on Sunday? Or he did not remain in the grave three days and three nights? You are contradicting your own explaination the events, which can be found here

A couple of gems from that post shall we?

quote:
Jesus could certainly have not been buried until Wednesday sunset

quote:
The tradition of accepting Friday as the crucifixion day is not a reflection of what the Bible reports, the error being in the chosen day if there is error, not in the Bible.

quote:
That had to take some time. He was evidently buried Thursday night, not Wednesday afternoon

quote:
Keep in mind the Jewish calendar differences from what we observe. That day he was crucified could not have been our Friday, but had to be our Wednesday.

The differences in the calenders are only 12 hours. How do you get from Friday to Wednesday?

quote:
The burial was that evening, the beginning of the Jew's Thursday night (our "Wedneday night").

Conflicting with Christ having been buried the day before the weekly regular Sabbath, as above.

Tell you what, pick a calendar and stick with it. I'd prefer the Jewish.

quote:
WS: Please supply the verses when dealing with detail.

The same chapter you cited, Exodus 12, verse 16.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-28-2002 7:29 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-29-2002 8:39 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 29 (18533)
09-29-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Wordswordsman
09-29-2002 8:39 AM


quote:
WS: You were not paying attention by running the two people together in the same sentnce. Grammar!

You have got to be kidding me!!!! According to my understanding of English, a period constitutes the end of a sentence. Scroll up and look.

quote:
WS: The Torah provided for a simple tabernacle which could be set up anywhere.

Think about it. Temple destroyed, people dispersed all over the Roman Empire and beyond. The Romans were very very irritated with the Jews at the time. Seperated from the temples and from the Priests and running for cover. What would you do? Ditch your religion or continue the best you can?

quote:
If sacrifices were desirable

IF? God said so.

quote:
WS: First came the regular weekly sabbath day. The next day was the first of the feast, a high Sabbath day. The last day of the feast as a special sabbath day too. Three sabbath days in that particular feast, then. Not always, since the first day of the feast doesn't often come the day after a weekly sabbath.

Well that's a different tale altogether.

quote:
They were expected to observe the three sabbaths, having no obligations towards the inner days of the feast.

This is not what you said previously.

quote:
WS: Not at all. The entire feast COULD be observed every day as a special Sabbath Week, but the two special sabbath days were subject to sabbath day rules.

This is not what you said.

This is pointless if you are going to continue to change the story.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-29-2002 8:39 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by nos482, posted 09-29-2002 11:43 AM John has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-30-2002 11:29 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 29 (18593)
09-30-2002 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by w_fortenberry
09-29-2002 4:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
"At the time of Christ, there were two timetables in use by the Jews. The Galileans measured each day from sunset to sunset while the Judeans measured from sunrise to sunrise.

Yes, this is interesting. Can you post some references? I have, so far, found only one site concerning this.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-29-2002 4:50 PM w_fortenberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by w_fortenberry, posted 09-30-2002 6:56 PM John has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 29 (18620)
09-30-2002 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Wordswordsman
09-30-2002 11:29 AM


WS: I was responding to two posts, failing to include the original:
"In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover."
You offered her opinion as though she were an authority.[quote][b]

I offered her opinion as that of someone raised in the traditions of Judaism, which is completely and unequivocally true.

quote:
Then you came back with: "Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very."

Also quite unequivocally true. I am an ex- and anti- Southern Baptist but I am very well versed in the traditions as I was raised within them.

quote:
That's not good use of any language, especially English.

Is English your first language?

quote:
You presented an image of a currently non-practicing female Rabbi who considers herself well versed, but still respectful of Sukkot and orthodox Judaism.

This is the most pitiful attempt at wiggling out of a misreading I have ever seen. 'Fess up. No big deal. We all make mistakes.

quote:
You switched subjects without an indication of inserting a second person. You had not previously indicated you had a "Rabbi buddy".

Think about it. I DID ask my friend. I CAN ASK THE RABBI after Sukkot.

quote:
Besides, why would anyone want to trust the beliefs of a person not willing to practice their beliefs (a hypocrite)?

Did I say she believed? I said she was a Jew and was raised in the traditions. Gee, but you like to jump to conclusions.

quote:
The desire to continue animal sacrifice ended because God ended it at Calvary, making it abundantly clear He had no further use for the Temple. The veil was rent, the Holy Place exposed to gentile eyes, by God Himself.

Prove it. I know what the NT says about this. Where is the confirmation from outside sources?

Ok. I mapped out what you said up to the following and I find no Sabbath or High Day in there except for the regular weekly Sabbath. Your statement that work can be performed on sheaf day excludes it from high day status.

quote:
Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.

Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.

quote:
It's entirely possible the day Jesus was crucified was the day before the High Day of the feast, on the day the priests made preparation for the High Day.

In which case, you have the high priests and pharisees marching thier butts down to Pilate's on the High Day, which makes no sense. Such activity would have been forbidden. Of course, this is a flaw with any version of the story.

quote:
The disciples came to Jesus on the Passover day, day one of the high Sabbat week.

This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.

quote:
I'm trying to find a Jewish calendar site that traced the PAssovers all the way back to the first one, showing which Passovers coincided with weekly sabbaths.

http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Wordswordsman, posted 09-30-2002 11:29 AM Wordswordsman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-01-2002 8:58 PM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 29 (18840)
10-02-2002 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Wordswordsman
10-01-2002 8:58 PM


quote:
All I did was challenge the value of her opinion since she is non-practicing.

What opinion? It is primarily a question about the usage of the language. May I ask a native speaker of Spanish about the language? Secondarily it is a question of tradition, and she knows the traditions. That she does not practise the religion is irrelevant, despite your emotional reactions to the fact.

But, why not just attack the question directly? Show me something to the contrary that is not embedded in Christian apology. Show me a Jewish or scholarly source to the contrary.

quote:
WS: Only spoken one. I like to study Greek and am working on Hebrew, having sound some online courses.

Check out http://rain.prohosting.com/davar/ and http://foundationstone.com.au/ if you haven't already.

quote:
WS: Enough of this. I made no error. You employed every poor sentence/paragraph structure.

LOL..... I can see the school teacher in you.

quote:
WS: The historian Josephus.

Got something more specific?

quote:
WS: Don't forget the Passover day. That was a High Sabbath Day.

By your calculation, just for clarity, which day is that?

quote:
Wednesday (Tuesday sunset-Wednesday sunset) Jesus crucified between
the 6th and 9th hour- noon to 3pm. His body was kept by
Pilate until retrieved by Joseph, who placed the body in his
own tomb after dark (even, past sunset), making burial on
Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special
once-a-year Sabbath.

quote:
WS: The day of preparation was the when the lambs were killed for the passover, the day before the High Sabbath of the feast, not the ordinary weekly sabbath.

Read your own statement-- quoted above. "...making burial on Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special once-a-year-Sabbath."

I repeat:
Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.

You seem to be arguing two conflicting things here. 1) That Christ was buried on the 'high day' 2) That Christ was buried on the day of preparation prior to the 'high day'

quote:
The whole point of crucifying Jesus when they did was to make sure He wasn't left on the cross into the High Sabbath.

Yes, I know.

quote:
WS: So was trial at night without representation forbidden, and without the Sanhedrin involved at that. They did what they did in the night, also anathema. By daybreak Jesus had already been condemned illegally by the high priest and been before Pilate then scourged.

I am not talking about Roman law. That is another topic and another reason I doubt the tale. I am talking about Jewish law-- the laws of the pharisees, which you have previously argued to be extreme. Yet, you don't question a tale which has them violating these laws?

quote:
John:This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.

quote:
WS: See how far you strayed from wrong conclusions?


uh.... no, or I would not have brought it up. How about responding to the question?

quote:
They have the analysis down to the day and hour in itself verifying the fact Jesus was crucified.

LOL..... that isn't verification, its fable. That kind of precision ought to raise a few red flags.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-01-2002 8:58 PM Wordswordsman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by John, posted 10-09-2002 12:02 AM John has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 29 (19357)
10-09-2002 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by John
10-02-2002 10:53 AM


WS:

Where are ya little buddie? I was liking this thread.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by John, posted 10-02-2002 10:53 AM John has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2002 12:02 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 29 (19991)
10-16-2002 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by doctrbill
10-16-2002 12:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
I cruised this thread out of curiosity and noticed a couple of things which were not mentioned but which might have some bearing on the issue.


Interesting, but I don't see the relevance to the thread. May be you can go into a bit more depth? I was quite enjoying this thread, then Wordswordsman vanished.

As you probably noticed, not many on this board take much interest in Biblical analysis.

Take care.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2002 12:02 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2002 11:50 PM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 29 (20068)
10-17-2002 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by doctrbill
10-16-2002 11:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
BTW, I visited your site and found it difficult to read the dark red text on the black background. I wear trifocals but I'll bet I'm not the only one who has mentioned this, yes?

You are the first to comment actually. I need to make some updates, so I'll see what I can do about the problem.

quote:
www.sun-day-school.us

db


Your website crashes Mozilla. Though I haven't tested it, any browser built on the Mozilla core may have problems with it-- ie Netscape, Galeon and some others. Just thought you might want to know.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2002 11:50 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 12:37 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 29 (20070)
10-17-2002 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by doctrbill
10-17-2002 12:37 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
Thanks for the heads up. Thought I had set it up to allow Netscape.

When you say "crashes" do you mean that your screen locked up? You get knocked offline? You lose the link? What?

db


Mozilla (build ID:20022091014) on Win98 suffers a fatal error and shuts down. The rest of the system is unaffected.

The page works in Explorer and Opera on Win98. It is readable in Galeon and Mozilla on Slackware Linux but the formatting is not right. Ditto for Omniweb, Explore, iCab and Chimera on OS X. Netscape on Slackware seems to do just fine.

I noticed that the page is XML. May I ask why? I don't really see anything that cannot be done with HTML and with a LOT less code to boot. Just curious. Tell me to shut up and go away if you want.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 12:37 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 9:52 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 29 (20112)
10-17-2002 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by doctrbill
10-17-2002 9:52 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
quote:
Originally posted by John:
I noticed that the page is XML. May I ask why? I don't really see anything that cannot be done with HTML and with a LOT less code to boot. Just curious. Tell me to shut up and go away if you want.

Beats the heck outa me! I wondered why there was so much code. I am a greenhorn when it come to all that. Been working with MS Front Page. It's back to the books for sure. Thanks for all the tips.

db


If you want some help you can email me directly -- apljdi@austin.rr.com. I love this sort of thing.

Oh, and Frontpage is evil

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 9:52 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by doctrbill, posted 10-20-2002 10:44 AM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 29 (20401)
10-21-2002 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by doctrbill
10-20-2002 10:44 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
I have found that it is easier and more effective to upload from yahoo's file manager than from Front Page itself.

You've tapped into my evangelical geek vein I highly recommend LeechFTP for uploading files, if you run Windows.

quote:
You are not the first person who has expressed criticism of FP and there do seem to be some glitches but I certainly enjoy the creative potential which it offers.

Here is the thing about FP's creative potential, IMHP. In order for your page to be accessible to the greatest number of viewers, you can't stray too far from strict HTML. Cascading style sheets, Java, Javascript are all buggy in one browser or another. If you look at professional code, you see switches that load code optimised for the different browsers and OS's. Really it is all terribly messy. XML is extremely buggy and essentially not functional in most browsers. FP allows easy access to all of this stuff and likely does not tell you about the bugs. To make it worse, Microsoft has a bad habit of making things work on their systems and on no one else's. There are functions that only work in IE. There are fundtions that only work in IE on Windows. It is all very irritating. So there. Sermon over.

Are you images uploaded? I can't access them. I see only the placeholders.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[This message has been edited by John, 10-21-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by doctrbill, posted 10-20-2002 10:44 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2002 4:51 PM John has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 29 (20877)
10-26-2002 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by doctrbill
10-21-2002 4:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
Dangit!

I finally got them to display for me. Now you can't see them!?

Thought I'd done everything according to Hoyle.

Thanks for the tip.

Now, Back to the drawing boards.

db


Hey,

That page looks good now!

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2002 4:51 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by doctrbill, posted 10-26-2002 9:48 PM John has not yet responded

  
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