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Author | Topic: the day the lord died | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
The following is a copy/paste from another thread where I have been discussing the crucifiction with Wordswordsman. I've been feeling guilty about derailing the topic so.... viola!
[quote][b]had aleady read that site and found their Wednesday crucifixion scenario to match up with other sources. Jesus could certainly have not been buried until Wednesday sunset, and he could have resurrected at sunset Saturday, the end of the sabbath, being available Sunday morning for Mary to encounter, leaving no partial night to deal with. Like the Blue Letter site says, it isn't stated, but there is no room for critics to say the days and nights don't add up. The tradition of accepting Friday as the crucifixion day is not a reflection of what the Bible reports, the error being in the chosen day if there is error, not in the Bible. Notice they leave out the fact that Joseph asked for and obtained the body of Jesus late afternoon towards evening or after dark, being Thursday night anytime after sunset. Joseph first asked at even, then Pilate had the body delivered. That had to take some time. He was evidently buried Thursday night, not Wednesday afternoon. I get that from the Greek for "even" in Mt. 27:57, from Gr. opsios; late; feminine (as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve) :- even (-ing, [-tide]). Another point not considered was that Joseph had rolled a stone across the tomb that evening, leaving the two Marys on 'guard', part of their proper grieving. The next day the Jews got Pilate to set a Roman guard there which sealed the stone, so Mary's subsequent visits would have been prevented, unable to get past the stone. Besides, the burial was hasty and it wasn't reasonable for Mary to have the oils on hand for anointing the body so soon, and there was the problem of the next day being an automatic sabbath following the Passover. She might have obtained the oils quickly, but couldn't have used them until finding the guard gone. So the normal non sabbath day of Friday would not have been useful for her, being also prohibited from travelling or working on both Thursday and Saturday, leaving only Sunday as the first possible day she could maybe gain entrance, knowing eventually the guard would leave. Had she not been able to gain entrance by then the law would have prevented her touching the corruption of the 4th day. Jesus avoided that, saving Mary the daunting task of dealing with a body that would soon stink. Upon her arrival she found Jesus already out of the grave. In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover. However, the day following Passover is a Holy Day with much the same rules as on the Sabbath. Your explaination therefore holds, with one minor change of detail. What is curious to me in light of this is why would this day be represented as the Sabbath by Jews, as any first hand witnesses would have been? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Non-practising, I believe. She was born and raised in Isreal and considers herself well versed in the traditions. Come Monday, when Sukkot is over, I can ask my little Rabbi buddy-- orthodox, very.
quote: Not likely as ignorant of Jewish tradition as yourself. Don't insult my friends.
quote: I don't get this from the reading. Looks to me like the first and the seventh day are holy days, but not those days in between. My reading is better for you, actually, because during the crucifixion week the trial of Christ took place on those days between the first and seventh. If, as you say, all seven days were High days, no Jews would have been out and about being political.
quote: You haven't addressed the question. I don't dispute that there was an extra Holy Day that week. I stated so in my initial post. In Exodus, the day in in question is refered to as quodesh migra' not as a sabbath. Why would a Jew describe it as such? This is what is curious to me about the tale. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: WS, you are not paying attention. It is very frustrating. The lady I asked is non-practising. The rabbi I will ask is orthodox.
quote: And your point is to discredit my source? Why not just address the issue.
quote: Another attempt to discredit my aquaintance?
quote: Animal sacrifice ended because the Romans destroyed the last Jewish temple, thereby breaking the priestly tradition.
quote: Gee, my friend is an interior designer. However, Rabbi Lubovich is a Rabbi, but I have yet to have to speak with him on this. As I explained, it is a holiday and I am not going to bother him until the holiday is over.
quote: Interesting... I shall remember this statement.
quote: Yet your opinion of her tradition is somehow valid? Very strange indeed.
quote: Right.... cause one can believe everything on the web.
quote: 'k. Not disputed.
quote: What? You need to explain what you mean here. I see only two Sabbath days. The first is the weekly Sabbath and also the first day of the feast-- note that you said the first corresponds with the regular weekly Sabbath--, and the second would be the Sabbath of the last day of the feast.
quote: Did you not say:
quote: The two statements are contradictory. You cannot have both a Sabbath rest and a return to duties.
quote: And again? Does this not conflict with the entire holiday being a Sabbath rest?
quote: Then he did not rise on Sunday? Or he did not remain in the grave three days and three nights? You are contradicting your own explaination the events, which can be found here A couple of gems from that post shall we?
quote: quote: quote: quote: The differences in the calenders are only 12 hours. How do you get from Friday to Wednesday?
quote: Conflicting with Christ having been buried the day before the weekly regular Sabbath, as above. Tell you what, pick a calendar and stick with it. I'd prefer the Jewish.
quote: The same chapter you cited, Exodus 12, verse 16. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You have got to be kidding me!!!! According to my understanding of English, a period constitutes the end of a sentence. Scroll up and look.
quote: Think about it. Temple destroyed, people dispersed all over the Roman Empire and beyond. The Romans were very very irritated with the Jews at the time. Seperated from the temples and from the Priests and running for cover. What would you do? Ditch your religion or continue the best you can?
quote: IF? God said so.
quote: Well that's a different tale altogether.
quote: This is not what you said previously.
quote: This is not what you said. This is pointless if you are going to continue to change the story. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, this is interesting. Can you post some references? I have, so far, found only one site concerning this. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
WS: I was responding to two posts, failing to include the original:
"In the interest of my own continuing education, I asked a Jew. She denied that there is a High Sabbath the day following Passover." You offered her opinion as though she were an authority.[quote][b] I offered her opinion as that of someone raised in the traditions of Judaism, which is completely and unequivocally true.
quote: Also quite unequivocally true. I am an ex- and anti- Southern Baptist but I am very well versed in the traditions as I was raised within them.
quote: Is English your first language?
quote: This is the most pitiful attempt at wiggling out of a misreading I have ever seen. 'Fess up. No big deal. We all make mistakes.
quote: Think about it. I DID ask my friend. I CAN ASK THE RABBI after Sukkot.
quote: Did I say she believed? I said she was a Jew and was raised in the traditions. Gee, but you like to jump to conclusions.
quote: Prove it. I know what the NT says about this. Where is the confirmation from outside sources? Ok. I mapped out what you said up to the following and I find no Sabbath or High Day in there except for the regular weekly Sabbath. Your statement that work can be performed on sheaf day excludes it from high day status.
quote: Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath.
quote: In which case, you have the high priests and pharisees marching thier butts down to Pilate's on the High Day, which makes no sense. Such activity would have been forbidden. Of course, this is a flaw with any version of the story.
quote: This would be the high day. Now if this was the day before Christ was tried and crucified, that means that the first sabbat rest day was pre-betrayal and seven days later was post-resurrection and therefore the Sabbat was the regular weekly sabbat on Friday. And the numbers get screwed up again. Unless you propose more than three high days during the allotted time.
quote: Free custom Jewish Holiday Calendar - Hebcal ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: What opinion? It is primarily a question about the usage of the language. May I ask a native speaker of Spanish about the language? Secondarily it is a question of tradition, and she knows the traditions. That she does not practise the religion is irrelevant, despite your emotional reactions to the fact. But, why not just attack the question directly? Show me something to the contrary that is not embedded in Christian apology. Show me a Jewish or scholarly source to the contrary.
quote: Check out No webpage found at provided URL: http://rain.prohosting.com/davar/ and FoundationStone - a free and easy way to learn Hebrew if you haven't already.
quote: LOL..... I can see the school teacher in you.
quote: Got something more specific?
quote: By your calculation, just for clarity, which day is that?
quote: quote: Read your own statement-- quoted above. "...making burial on Thursday. Highest day of the Feast, a special once-a-year-Sabbath." I repeat:Burial was on the once-a-year-Sabbath? This doesn't jibe with Mar. 15:42 which says it was the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath. You seem to be arguing two conflicting things here. 1) That Christ was buried on the 'high day' 2) That Christ was buried on the day of preparation prior to the 'high day'
quote: Yes, I know.
quote: I am not talking about Roman law. That is another topic and another reason I doubt the tale. I am talking about Jewish law-- the laws of the pharisees, which you have previously argued to be extreme. Yet, you don't question a tale which has them violating these laws?
quote: uh.... no, or I would not have brought it up. How about responding to the question?
quote: LOL..... that isn't verification, its fable. That kind of precision ought to raise a few red flags. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
WS:
Where are ya little buddie? I was liking this thread. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Interesting, but I don't see the relevance to the thread. May be you can go into a bit more depth? I was quite enjoying this thread, then Wordswordsman vanished. As you probably noticed, not many on this board take much interest in Biblical analysis. Take care. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You are the first to comment actually. I need to make some updates, so I'll see what I can do about the problem.
quote: Your website crashes Mozilla. Though I haven't tested it, any browser built on the Mozilla core may have problems with it-- ie Netscape, Galeon and some others. Just thought you might want to know. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Mozilla (build ID:20022091014) on Win98 suffers a fatal error and shuts down. The rest of the system is unaffected. The page works in Explorer and Opera on Win98. It is readable in Galeon and Mozilla on Slackware Linux but the formatting is not right. Ditto for Omniweb, Explore, iCab and Chimera on OS X. Netscape on Slackware seems to do just fine. I noticed that the page is XML. May I ask why? I don't really see anything that cannot be done with HTML and with a LOT less code to boot. Just curious. Tell me to shut up and go away if you want. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: If you want some help you can email me directly -- apljdi@austin.rr.com. I love this sort of thing. Oh, and Frontpage is evil ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You've tapped into my evangelical geek vein I highly recommend LeechFTP for uploading files, if you run Windows.
quote: Here is the thing about FP's creative potential, IMHP. In order for your page to be accessible to the greatest number of viewers, you can't stray too far from strict HTML. Cascading style sheets, Java, Javascript are all buggy in one browser or another. If you look at professional code, you see switches that load code optimised for the different browsers and OS's. Really it is all terribly messy. XML is extremely buggy and essentially not functional in most browsers. FP allows easy access to all of this stuff and likely does not tell you about the bugs. To make it worse, Microsoft has a bad habit of making things work on their systems and on no one else's. There are functions that only work in IE. There are fundtions that only work in IE on Windows. It is all very irritating. So there. Sermon over. Are you images uploaded? I can't access them. I see only the placeholders. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 10-21-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Hey, That page looks good now! ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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