"In the end there must have been a creator"

But as I have pointed out NOBODY has an adequate answer to "why there is something rather than nothing". I agree that if God exists then God must be counted as "something" and that is why I reject Solomon's attempt at an answer (since it can only work if God is nothing).

Ah, the old I'm mad at God syndrome. Yep, you'll find him that way.

I'm not angry at god, you arrogant know-it -all. Unreal things do not stir emotions in me. Misguided followers of that unreal thing, like you, who see fit to behave in such condescending, self-righteous, and ignorant ways certainly earn my wrath.Keep your inane comments to yourself.This message has been edited by mikehager, 02-17-2005 19:17 AM

Ah more mindreading - if I was a christian, I'd think you were working for Satan. You do a fantastic job of making christianity sound the worse stance in the world.

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and the universe became more and more complicated

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Do you really think that you can end up with something as complex as the human brain and all of it's ability to process the sences in such fantastic eloquence - From Hot Gas???Do you really think that the context of DNA created - Itself???Do you really think that the 4 governing physical forces can produce through random chance and 17 billion years - The Machine We Call Earth and all of it's intricately balanced mechanical processes that allow life as we experience it???Do you really think that the 4 governing forces can produce living machines called humans, who are capable of intellect on a grand scale yet pale in comparision to the GRAND Intellect that - the design of the human exhibits???Of course there is no intellegent design!!!

Five virtual pounds for the person who can complete this well-known phrase or saying:Lizardbreath is attemping a ________________ ______ _____________.

Check the dates CK.If the world is only 6K years old there has to be a Creator.This message has been edited by jar, 02-17-2005 18:31 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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so TC- where is your evidence that the universe has not expanded and contracted a great number of times, possibly an infinite number of times? where is your evidence that we are not one of millions of universes that are currently part of an incredibly large cosmos?

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I commend you on your faith. I don't believe that I have ever met a Christian who had enough faith in God to submit to his will with the conjecture that you find fully enough to sustain your faith in evolution.God created, then God provided a message system to the Creation so that the Creation would know what this is all about. He created the property of time and then used that very property to authenticate his message. This message can be differentiated from the millions of pseudo-holy documents that have been produced by observing that it pontificates outside the boundries of space/time which no part of the Creation can do.

ah yes! - I was just looking at LB's post.

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Lizardbreath is attemping a ________________ ______ _____________.

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Hi C.K.From my perspective, the 3 blank spaces would be filled by "unapproved forum visitation" because if my wife discovers that I'm in this chat room instead of paying the bills, she'll have my randomly created via evolutionary progress Crainium.

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take 2 billion decks of cards, and pick a combination. the chances of picking the correct order is undescribably low. yet every time you lay them out, you are getting a combination. are you witnessing a miracle?

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Take 2 billion computer keyboards and line them up. Walk down the line and type 52 random keystrokes in each one of them. Assemble the resulting document from end to end. Repeat this activity trillions of times. How many times will you get a document that makes sense?Actually every time if the document fits an agreed upon context. But you would need a different agreed upon context for each possibility which is even more astronomical than just hitting upon a combination once that does agree with a sole, logical context.

No, they all do that.

Open a dictionary and point to a word. How many times will you point at a word that you know the definition of?If it's a Chinese dictionary, that is.You picked the ultimate bad example, because language is the ultimate example of context-sensitive encoding. A better example would have been - generate a random polypeptide from any number of amino residues. How likely is it to exhibit some useful property? The answer, according to people smarter than I, is one in 10^11.So do that about a million trillion times, and then select out the ones that are useful. How many useful proteins will you have? A fuck-ton. That's how evolution works. We generate a lot of shit at random, including, very, very rarely, something that works better; and then we throw out everything that doesn't work. Variation is expanded randomly in all directions; then variation is contracted in specific directions.It's so elegant, it has to work. It's impossible for it not to work.

"a fuck-ton" could I use that Crash..??

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Open a dictionary and point to a word. How many times will you point at a word that you know the definition of?

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First off, the words in the dictinary are already arranged in order - by someone.Second, even if I don't know the meaning of the word, the word has an established context or it wouldn't be in the dictionary.Third, the word and word meaning are represented by symbology so that it can be recognised, duplicated and used in conjuntion with other words.Fourth, the words are designed to be used together with other words to create a sentence of higher meaning than just the sum of the words themselves. Try randomly re-arrangeing the words in the lead sentence of this paragraph and see how many times you get something useful compared to the original.So the 4 governing forces had to create the words, the dictionary, the context and the conclusions that are formed by combining the words into streams in order to get something that can exhibit life, take care of itself, reproduce and improve - all strickly by chance?I find it more plausible that a massive infussion of intellegence was nessessary to both get it all started and to continously guide the process.