Consciousness outside of the brain

As far as I’m concerned, as with alien abductions, there has grown a common consensus as to what an NDE is. As such there is a commonly held concept of what happens and what you experience.This can be proved as most of us can describe what a NDE is like yet the vast , vast majority have not experienced one. So its plain that we as a whole have a pre-conceived notion of what to expect on the cusp of death.Who knows what actually happens in the brain as its dying? Have any studies been done where dying people are put into scanners to actually watch the processes in the brain as the brain dies? One thing is certain it would be an experience and sensation that it has not experienced before and so in the last few desperate moments the brain would try and identify and would seek meaning in what was happening to it. Maybe it latches on to the socially held concept of what an NDE is and convinces itself of this fact and believes it indeed has an NDE.If someone claims to have a continuous memory of events, despite being clinically dead for a short period of time, just think on how your VCR works. The VCR is taping a show and you kill the power and then after a few moments you turn it back on. The recorder resumes it recording and when you view the tape there is no area of blank tape.Either the brain convinces itself it’s having an NDE on the way down or puts the memories together after the event on the way back up.One thing I am fairly sure of is that the human brain is the root of our mind and thus our consciousness. So expecting or believing this consciousness to exist separate from the brain is silly. (Sorry but it is)Along with actually scanning a dying brain to see what’s happening in there, another good study would be to examine the rates of claimed NDE in populations that have never heard of NDE compared with a population that has a high saturation in the belief of NDE. My guess would be reported cases of NDE would be prevalent in the population that has a high saturation of people who believe in NDEs and virtually non existent in the population that has never developed or heard of NDEs.

Exactly.If you have ever been out drinking and had more then is probably wise, then you are quite likely to know that your experience and perception of the flow of time and events can become distorted and un-reliable. Like wise when you are chronically ill with flu or worse you can loose track of where and when things happen.With NDEs there is no clear cut evidence that any of these memories come from the point where the brain is shut down. As has been said ‘clinically dead’ doesn’t necessarily mean no brain activity what so ever. There could be far, far lower than normal activity; enough for the doctors to use the label ‘clinically dead’ as it’s clear they can’t continue to function at that level, off the machines.So as there is quite strong doubt that these experiences occur in periods of zero brain activity, and are thought to occur in a very low state of brain activity or in the activity between periods of zero activity, then there is nothing concrete to tie claims of the consciousness existing separate from the brain to.I apologise for the use of the word ‘silly’, that was wrong of me.Our brains are fantastically complicated things and thanks to the highly complex wiring inside, our minds, personality and consciousness are all emergent properties of this wonderful organ. We, currently have nowhere near a complete understanding of the totality of its workings. To assume otherwise would be folly. Like wise to assume that consciousness exists as something separate from mind & body, on the evidence we have is also tantamount to folly, as any claimed evidence is anecdotal at best.Yes people have varying experiences but as your linked article said: This does fit the generally accepted notion of an NDE, does it not? Particulars may be different here and there but the general theme does tend to be similar.I don’t blame people for wanting to believe in what NDE reports seem to show as it does seem a natural urge for the human animal to seek conformation of some kind of continuation after this mortal existence. But as far as I can see the evidence is not there.Now is you could do an experiment where you could verify some one had absolutely zero brain activity (brain death) and during this time read them a unique passage of text. Then if they recover and subsequently recall this bit of text THEN a case might well be made. But only if there is not the slightest trickle of activity in the patient’s brain.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 21 February 2005 11:44 AM

Also if the soul (consciousness) is separate from the brain, and consciousness isn’t simply an emergent property of the biological workings of the brain, if the soul (consciousness) is the embodiment of us, our thoughts memories and personality then, being separate and all that, why does damage to the brain frequently cause drastic changes to personality, thoughts and memories in the victim?We are told that the soul/consciousness is the root of us it is what defines us, our thoughts our personality. How else are we to recognise each other in heaven? So our souls are what make us, us. We are also told that our soul is immortal and un-corruptible (being pure and god given.)If this is so how can brain trauma affect a person’s personality? How can stoving in a lump of grey matter alter an incorruptible, immortal and separate immaterial thing as a soul, as it must do if our personality is changed? Do not the chronic shifts in personality, due to trauma, indicate that it is more likely that personality, thoughts, memories and consciousness are emergent properties of the biological brain rather than residing in a non-tangible, incorporeal thing such as a soul?This message has been edited by ohnhai, 23 February 2005 11:53 AM

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All things being equal, It's time to tip the scales...Ohnhai
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