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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 256 of 466 (186659)
02-18-2005 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by wmscott
02-11-2005 9:57 PM


We don't have to worship God if we don't want.
wmscott writes:
What Paul wrote, he wrote under the guiding force of the holy spirit
Says who?
Says Paul, of course!
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,"
All scripture includes what Paul wrote, doesn't it?.
How convenient for him.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by wmscott, posted 02-11-2005 9:57 PM wmscott has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 257 of 466 (186697)
02-19-2005 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
02-18-2005 7:41 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Hi,
However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do.
But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc.
If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it?
Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born. So, why Christianity for you?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 02-18-2005 7:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 10:01 AM Brian has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 258 of 466 (186708)
02-19-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by MiguelG
02-17-2005 12:20 AM


Re: How to worship God?
Dear MiguelG;
[Wmscott: 2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write.] -So you're saying that God wanted people to write in Deuteronomy & Leviticus that it was ok to stone rape victims (from the city mind you), and stone disobedient children?
Yes, he did, the law code was from God. Jesus said so at, (Mark 7:10-13) "Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' . . . YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother, and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition" Jesus himself stated that the law was the word of God. (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant, and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.)
being who is supposed to have slaughtered countless innocents in a global flood and at Som & Gommorrah etc.?
Jesus referred to both as acts of God and that something simular would happen in the future, as an act of God. (Luke 17:26-30) "just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot came out of Sodom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed."
No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah. (2 Peter 2:5-6) "he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;" Only the 'ungodly' died in both of these executions of divine justice.
Clearly, love is of paramount importance and all other scripture must be subordinate to and interpreted through these commandments.
Of course, but if you love your child, do you still discipline him? Of course you do. God's justice is balanced by his love, but the reverse is equally true. It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous.
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction"
It is only possible for the meek to inherit the earth and live in peace, after the wicked have been destroyed. Notice also in the above verse that Jesus is the one who leads the angels in the destruction of the wicked. People seem to have this all pink and fuzzy lovely dovey view of God and Jesus, that they are incapable of harming anyone, even the wicked. Which is not what God's word tells us, as the above verse shows, people forget that God has four main qualities, one is love, then wisdom, justice and power. So while God is love, that is not all he is.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by MiguelG, posted 02-17-2005 12:20 AM MiguelG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 8:42 AM wmscott has replied
 Message 265 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:18 AM wmscott has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 259 of 466 (186714)
02-19-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by wmscott
02-19-2005 8:19 AM


Re: How to worship God?
Hi w,
It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous.
Can you explain how a day old baby born in Sodom could be considered wicked?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by wmscott, posted 02-19-2005 8:19 AM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by wmscott, posted 02-20-2005 10:02 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 466 (186734)
02-19-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Brian
02-19-2005 6:13 AM


Is that really all?
But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc.
Well, to be a Christian you need to believe in Jesus, his death and resurection. That much is a given. But that is not what this thread is talking about; here we're talking about salvation.
Christ died for mankind. It is a gift from GOD, freely given to all. It is not just to Christians, not just to professing believers. Instead it's a gift for everyone who follows the two Great Commandments, love God and love others as you love yourself.
The '... whole sin in the garden stuff' IMHO is totally misused by many Christians. Like much of the Bible, it is a parable. It is the description of what sets man apart from the other animals, the fact that we do know good from evil and so have both the responsibility and the capability to do the former. The Virgin Birth is an article of faith for Christians pertaining to the birth of Jesus. But even among Christians, I don't know of anything in the Bible that says you'd be damned if you didn't believe in it. It is a rather extraordinary claim.
If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it?
Bad folk will be damned. Exactly what that means is as unknown as the first moments of the Big Bang. But I doubt it will be pleasant. It may only be a total cessation. My personal belief is that it will be a role reversal. Hitler will become a gay, Hassidic Jew in Poland during the 1930's.
Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born.
I agree. And I also don't reject Buddhist teachings and practices. If you've followed many of my posts you will have noticed I strongly urge Christians and others to study Buddhism as well as the teachings of Mecius, Confucius and others.
So, why Christianity for you?
Partly through accident of birth. Had I been born somewhere else it's very likely I'd be a different religion. But after many years of study covering many of the pathways to God I have found little in Christianity that conflicts with other moral systems and nothing in the others that I did not find in Christ.
I do have a problem though with those Christians who preach a religion of exclusion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 6:13 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 10:21 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 261 of 466 (186738)
02-19-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
02-19-2005 10:01 AM


Re: Is that really all?
Well, to be a Christian you need to believe in Jesus, his death and resurection. That much is a given. But that is not what this thread is talking about; here we're talking about salvation.
So, in your opinion, we can be saved by loving each other and NOT believing in death and resurrection of Jesus, and we go to the same place as the souls who do believe in the death and resurrection bit?
Christ died for mankind. It is a gift from GOD, freely given to all. It is not just to Christians, not just to professing believers. Instead it's a gift for everyone who follows the two Great Commandments, love God and love others as you love yourself.
To me this suggests that Christ's death was meaningless.
I mean if the gift of eternal life with God is acheivable by just lovng other as you love yourself, then Jesus didn't need to die? His death was pointless if there is another way to get into heaven.
The Virgin Birth is an article of faith for Christians pertaining to the birth of Jesus. But even among Christians, I don't know of anything in the Bible that says you'd be damned if you didn't believe in it. It is a rather extraordinary claim.
I was referring to an extremist viewpoint that every word of the Bible is ture and if you don't believe one syllable then you shouldnt believe any. It is rare though, I'll give you that.
It may only be a total cessation.
Why would this be unpleasant, it is, after all, the goal in Buddhism?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 10:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 10:38 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 466 (186741)
02-19-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Brian
02-19-2005 10:21 AM


Re: Is that really all?
So, in your opinion, we can be saved by loving each other and NOT believing in death and resurrection of Jesus, and we go to the same place as the souls who do believe in the death and resurrection bit?
Sure. That's what Jesus said IMHO.
To me this suggests that Christ's death was meaningless.
I mean if the gift of eternal life with God is acheivable by just lovng other as you love yourself, then Jesus didn't need to die? His death was pointless if there is another way to get into heaven.
I don't know if we'll have time enough in this thread to work through all of that but let's give it a try.
Jesus' life and death is a message. It is GOD explaining things to humans. It is not the fact that Jesus died, it is not the fact of Jesus birth that are the key. They are part of the message. GOD forgives and loves. The message was played out in terms and actions of the period, as something those contemporary would understand. Death, even crucifixion, was not unusual. In fact, on the same day, at least two others were crucified. Resurrection though WAS unusual. It is the message of hope, of continuance, of salvation.
Why would this be unpleasant, it is, after all, the goal in Buddhism?
We were talking about total cessation. By definition it would not be unpleasant, but it would by definition also not be pleasant. Cessation is simply the state of "Not Being".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 10:21 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:03 AM jar has replied
 Message 271 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:43 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 466 (186745)
02-19-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
02-03-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Reply to jar
I have reread the past 25 or so posts to gather a synopsis of what it is that we are debating.
The Topic starter, again, is Who can be saved? A Christian perspective.
Jar writes:
In addition, the condemnation in John 3:18 is explained fully in the next few lines. It is not a condemnation to hell or anything of the sort. Rather it is yet another affirmation of the constant theme of Jesus that you will be judged on what you do, not what you say.
No, it's not atheists that need to worry about salvation (of course they don't anyway) but rather Christians. It's the believers that will be spending their time in Hell, not the non-believers. It's folk like Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Larson, Bobby Tilton and Paul Crouch that will be lined up with the goats while the atheists walk in the front door.
Oh I believe Jesus words. Too bad so many Christians don't read them.
Well, I can't fault your logic! Jesus also says that everything hangs on the two commandments of Loving God..(Actions, remember. not words.) Loving our neighbor..(You correctly see that action is required here, also.) I agree with everything that you say...your heart is right and your logic is Texas simple. The Atheist would, like Abraham, have their Faith that they were doing what is right and true be counted as Righteousness. It is hard to deny Jesus in your heart if you are helping others. Why? Because you are living as Christ lived. Technically, the scriptures are right just as in technically Jesus should not have healed on the sabbath. If , however, your sheep gets washed in the ditch by a Tsunami, what good "atheist" farmer would not pull them out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 6:21 PM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 264 of 466 (186747)
02-19-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
02-19-2005 10:38 AM


Re: Is that really all?
Thanks for clarification.
One other point.
You say there are two commandments, love god, love others.
How can an atheist love God?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 11:20 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 02-19-2005 11:23 AM Brian has replied
 Message 268 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:29 AM Brian has replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1975 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 265 of 466 (186750)
02-19-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by wmscott
02-19-2005 8:19 AM


Re: How to worship God?
Dear WmScott,
Wmscott: Yes, he did, the law code was from God. Jesus himself stated that the law was the word of God.
Actually, in Matthew 22:36-40, Christ states that all the law and all the prophets teachings derived from His teaching of Love.
Explain please, how such laws as discussed here are in accordance with a teaching of love?
Wmscott: (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant
Because she was raped in the city?
So by this we are to conclude that all rape victims in the greater metropolitan areas of New York & Sydney should then be stoned since they were willing participants by your understanding of scripture?
Wmscott: and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.)
Old enough?
So a 13 year old could be stoned? Maybe a 12 year old?
Should we just stone all drunkards?
Wmscott: No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah. (2 Peter 2:5-6) "he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;" Only the 'ungodly' died in both of these executions of divine justice.
Perhaps you could explain then how a baby, toddler or young child might be ‘ungodly’ or not innocent?
Wmscott: but if you love your child, do you still discipline him?
Discipline is a word that covers a multitude of sins.
How much punishment would you say is fair for a disobedient child?
Suffice it to say that I would not stone, incinerate or in any way greviously harm, mutilate or slay my own offspring — or indeed any child.
But maybe you could show me where Christ is depicted as doing the same to children?
Wmscott: Of course you do. God's justice is balanced by his love, but the reverse is equally true. It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous.
Ah yes, spare the rod and spoil the child?
It is interesting, is it not, that this antiquated justification for physical abuse of children is no longer tolerated today.
Wmscott: It is only possible for the meek to inherit the earth and live in peace, after the wicked have been destroyed.
And you believe that the Bible sanctions humans to ‘chastise’ the wicked?
Wmscott: People seem to have this all pink and fuzzy lovely dovey view of God and Jesus, that they are incapable of harming anyone, even the wicked. Which is not what God's word tells us, as the above verse shows, people forget that God has four main qualities, one is love, then wisdom, justice and power. So while God is love, that is not all he is.
The picture you paint of Christ is your own and not supported by the words and deeds of Christ Himself.
You seem to think that a Christ of Love is somehow effete and impotent? How interesting.
I contend that His courage and His maintenance of peace & love in the face of torture and death was what made His teachings one of the most powerful in human history.
Cheers and God bless

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by wmscott, posted 02-19-2005 8:19 AM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by wmscott, posted 02-20-2005 10:06 AM MiguelG has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 466 (186751)
02-19-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Brian
02-19-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Is that really all?
How can an atheist love God?
Great question and I think I've covered it in this thread. One place was in Message 25. Later I got into a longer discussion with Phatboy beginning at Message 31.
Look those over and if you have other questions, maybe we should start another thread on whether or not atheists can love GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:03 AM Brian has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 466 (186752)
02-19-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Brian
02-19-2005 11:03 AM


Re: Is that really all?
Hi, Brian! You ask:
Brian writes:
How can an atheist love God?
Pretend that you were a Theist answering this question.
I'll be the atheist.
ME: How can I love something that does not exist?
YOU: Well, How do you express love? What is your ideal world governed by?
ME: Well, it is quite obvious that the world is far from perfect, and it appears that the fundamentalist religious mindset coupled with a love for money and power is causing most of the trouble.
YOU: What should we love besides money and power?
.............well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1975 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 268 of 466 (186753)
02-19-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Brian
02-19-2005 11:03 AM


Yes, amazingly enough
Hi Brian,
Anybody, an Atheist included, can still love God.
How? Simply by loving his/her fellow man.
John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
You don't have to believe in His deity or what not - the simple exercise of selfless love is enough.
It is both a simple philosophy to understand, and yet an extremely difficult one to fulfill.
But I believe it is the effort we make in attempting it that makes a difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 11:42 AM MiguelG has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 269 of 466 (186754)
02-19-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
02-19-2005 11:23 AM


Re: Is that really all?
YOU: What should we love besides money and power?
.............well?
Well?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 02-19-2005 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 270 of 466 (186755)
02-19-2005 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by MiguelG
02-19-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Yes, amazingly enough
Hi Miguel,
But, there is always a but.
I love my fellow humans, Jar, Phat, Percy, Charles, Paul, Asgara, Ned, Cory, Buzz, Mike, Holmes, Lam, Frog, all these guys and more.
However, I think that the God of the Bible is a gutless, horrendous, evil, barbarian, so I do not love God, even by proxy.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:29 AM MiguelG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:48 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 02-19-2005 2:33 PM Brian has not replied

  
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