Definition please

But the problem is that one of you could have made a suggestion of what the noise was and then the others agreeded what they heard. It's not difficult. You remember the bits that you want to remember and forget the rest (Cold reading is a good example of this).If you show people a video with Homer Simpson as a character in Disneyworld and then ask people if they saw homer in the park, then they will swear blind Homer was in the park. Many will recall detailed interactions!It's why testimony is so unrealiable in the scientific sense.

Of course. And this is why, as Ned has said before, that some things remain and always will remain in the area of Faith and Belief and will NEVER be scientifically proven. The only issue that I have is when people mock those of us who have experienced such things and ask us if we have also met Bigfoot or the invisible pink unicorn! I will admit, however, that much of organized religion does belong in the same catagory with David Blaine.

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The only issue that I have is when people mock those of us who have experienced such things and ask us if we have also met Bigfoot or the invisible pink unicorn!

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We only mock when you ask us to seriously consider your claims but you then fail to provide any evidence at all, nor have you made any attempt at rational, critical examination of your own claim. You immediately conclude that your preferred interpretation of the events (your own conception of "demons and the spiritual realm") is the source of the phenomena.I mean, you say that the other people weren't playing tricks, but if one of them were, they wouldn't tell you, because that would spoil the ruse.You want to believe your preferred interpretation. The people in your group want to believe your preferred interpretation.Communal reinforcement is at work, as is wishful thinking and serious, serious personal bias.

I regret the mocking tone claims like yours often have to deal with, but it's hard to avoid. For example, what is it about your claim of observation of the spiritual world that differentiates it from claims about things like alien abduction. To me they both seem equally ridiculous. So tell me something about your claim that makes it seem much more credible than alien abductions.My guess about what you heard? I know you won't accept this, but one of the other two people was having fun at your expense.--Percy

Schraff, first of all, you are approaching this situation entirely from a naturalistic and rational point of view. Truly a detached observer. This is well and good, but you must consider that I was there. I was NOT a detached observer. Whether or not I was rational
cannot be proven, of course. I have critically examined the mindset that I experienced that day as well as that of my two friends. Perhaps I lack the zeal to try and aggressively disprove myself, but then again, perhaps some of you have a passion to get me to "see the light" much as I have a passion to get you to see the light. I will agree with you that if I were to examine that day as compared to every other day of my life, the event WOULD seem ridiculous. I mean, I do have a Christian Theist, supernatural world view, but God has never spoken to me in the same audible manner that I heard that day. God is more of an inner awareness. One thing that I am quite sure of is that neither of my friends set me up. At least, I am quite as sure of that as I am about any of your sincerities or sanities.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-16-2005 08:12 AM

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Schraff, first of all, you are approaching this situation entirely from a naturalistic and rational point of view.

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Well, you are making claims about real effects upon the natural world, aren't you?Why wouldn't methodological naturalism (i.e. the scientific method) apply in this case, and why would we need to use any other methodology?Is there a better one that you suggest we use?

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Truly a detached observer.

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Not detached.Disinterested.I have no particular desire to think one way or the other about your claim, and anyone, even someone with strong religious convictions who uses the scientific method correctly, can separate what they would like or prefer to be true about a phenomena with what the evidence actually provides.However, you have a very definite desire to think one particular way about your claim, and from what I can tell have not seriously considered that you could be self-deluded or mistaken and supported in your delusion by a group of like-minded people.You want to believe only one thing, so that's what you choose to believe.

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This is well and good, but you must consider that I was there. I was NOT a detached observer. Whether or not I was rational cannot be proven, of course.

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How is this any different from all of those people who believe they were abducted by aliens?

You are right, of course. I expect that you would advocate that all fundamentalist mindsets in the world need to check themselves and become disinterested and rational observers for the sake of human progress.DHA started this topic with these questions: I would expound on that and ask if any two people on this board can agree on a definition?I would assert that human progress is ultimately only furthered by knowing God.
Others may assert that human progress is only furthered by rational thought, of which religion is not.
Any other comments?

Assertions are so booooooring! Do you have any evidence that this is true? There is much evidence that scientific progress has been hurt and hindered by the christian church (ie. Chruch vs. Newton) and by religious people in power (ie. Prez W Bush vs. stem cell research). Of course it depends on what you mean by human progress, I equate it with scientific progess.

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I would assert that human progress is ultimately only furthered by knowing God.
Others may assert that human progress is only furthered by rational thought, of which religion is not.
Any other comments?

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How do you define "human progress"?How do you define "God".If you cannot define it, how can you know it?The belief in the supernatural was very high in medieval Europe, and that time is commonly described as the Dark Ages. It is also quite high in much of the Islamic world right now, and we have seen the effects of teaching people only the Koran and not any modern science or ideas.OTOH, the founders of the US specifically designed our government to be completely secular. The more religious our leaders have become, and the further away from our founding ideals we have gotten through the fundamentalist's actions, the more our individual rights have been eroded and closer we have gotten to a facist state.Now, I leave you with my sig quote...

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

Love your sig! TJ had quite the way with words!

On a different board I recently had (yet another) discussion with someone who was complaining that the reason the US was in such a sorry state today was because "God had been taken out of the Constitution".They never were able to show me where God had ever been in the Constitution in the first place, and I also pointed out that the major writers of the Constitution were very unlikely to put God into the document and backed it up with quotes, including my current sig.TJ REALLY distrusted religion, especially when it got anywhere near government.

I equate human progress with accepting reality. Anyone care to define reality?

Well then, you must be looking forward to the point in time that everyone throws off the shackles of mythology, dogma and religion, because these obviously aren't based on reality!

Everyone is a slave to something! I look forward to the day when I can throw off the chains of addictions, lusts, and habits which are detrimental to me. My relationship with Christ frees me from chains rather than binding me tighter! I will agree with you about the chains of religion, however! I know Christ better now that I am not in bondage to church. I go when I want to go...not because I feel compelled or required to do so. I also do not listen to the Christian agenda of organized religion. [cliche]its about relationship.[/cliche]