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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 106 of 381 (186685)
02-19-2005 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 2:21 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
God didn't include every thought and action of His in the Bible, just because something is not specifically written does not mean that is not plausible.

yes, but there's what the story says, and there's "just making stuff up." this whole spiritual death thing? it's just making stuff up. the whole idea of man as an entity existing after death is completely anachronistic for the writing of genesis. there was just death, and the grave. possibly some kind of underworld (ala hades) but not in the sense of even being who you were in life.

It may be the same word in both places but it doesn't have the same emphasis,[which is denoted in more ways than repetition] indicating a different meaning. In Genesis 5:5 it says "and he died." not "and he surely died!"

the surely, or the extra "die" in hebrew, is there to emphasize that god is serious. he means DEATH. not disconnection from him, DEATH. the same kind of death adam had several hundred years later.

I didn't dodge the question, I presented plausible arguments, and what does it matter whether God said it was a punishment or not? My answer didn't state that was a fact, it was a possibility I raised.

it matters a lot if it's a punishment. everyone reads it that way. he might have just been saying the fruit was poisonous.

The original question "who lied, God or satan?" was answered : satan. They did die spiritually, and they did not become like God.

show me the spiritual death? you're making it up, i know you are.

and as for not becoming like god, well. i've caught you on that one. if they didn't becoming like god, then god's lying when he says they did.

quote:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us

and my original question was "who lied, god or THE SERPENT." please show me where this satan guy comes into play? i think you're making stuff up again.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 02-19-2005 04:04 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 2:21 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by xevolutionist, posted 02-20-2005 11:57 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 107 of 381 (186686)
02-19-2005 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by doctrbill
02-17-2005 10:03 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
PS - A 'spiritual' death is no more supportable than the assertion you make above. It is clear that the deity's prediction failed while the serpent's came to pass. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to figure out why the story reads this way and share your newfound knowledge in this forum. Yes?

i've heard a suggestion that the bible is truly the greatest test of faith, and that satan had more to do with it's authorship than god. why else would god be painted a liar and cruel dictator in the opening, outwitted by a lowly serpent who is then punished for his subtlety -- as god created him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by doctrbill, posted 02-17-2005 10:03 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 108 of 381 (186688)
02-19-2005 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by xevolutionist
02-19-2005 1:10 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
The serpent, not satan, was used as an example of wisdom. The bronze serpent was a reminder of sin's penalty. Which Jesus paid when He was lifted up on the cross.

and it is the serpent in genesis 2 and 3, NOT satan. same word for the kind of serpent moses's staff becomes.

and the bronze serpent (not the same kind, venomous) is not a reminder of sin's penalty, it was used to heal the israelites -- "just like jesus!"

I think you meant Romans 5:14 and the complete sentence continues, "even those who had not sinned in the same way as Adam." There were no sinless people. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

except for good old job. he didn't sin.

I am not trying to rewrite scripture, I am trying to interpret it as one complete, consistent message from God, which is what I believe it is.

not read much of it, have we? i can't get more than a chapter into the first book without spotting inconsistencies. if there's one thing the bible is NOT it's consistent.

I think Adam and Eve received a tiny bit of knowledge of evil for giving up eternal life in the warm embrace of a loving God.

good and evil. as in awareness, and the ability to judge between the two. the story is about the origin of moral choice, and conciousness (and human emotion). it explains the tradeoffs for conciousness: a lifetime of work, pain and heartache in raising children, and marital strife.

if you missed that aspect to the store -- well, you missed the point. the point is that there is something of god in us, and we are like god in some way that makes us special, and that it is worth the pain and sacrifice and separation from god's paradise.

whoever told you it's about guilt and death is trying to sell you a religion.

Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary. Is that because he was so truthful?

"satan" MEANS adversary. and it's STILL not satan in the story. it's a serpent. satan is an angel, probably a son of god. a serpent is an animal that goes about his belly licking the dust. does satan do that? no.

it is also completely possible, indeed very effective, to decieve with the truth. politicians do it all the time.

Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there

that's written somewhere between 2000 and 800 years after genesis was written, depending on the dates you believe in. it's an editorial opinion of the text. and paul... well. he's another discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by xevolutionist, posted 02-19-2005 1:10 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 12:42 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 109 of 381 (186690)
02-19-2005 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by dbrennan
02-17-2005 2:44 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Nowhere in Genesis does it actually say "Spiritually Die." But also nowhere in the bible do we see the word "Trinity." These are things that theologians have given a name to describe things in the bible.

they're concept designed explain away problems. THESE problems. somewhere, someone came up with the idea that god can't lie. and so they needed to invent a way to deal with this story. and better yet, while we're at it, control whole groups of religious people with guilt for something they didn't even do.

nevermind that it's blasphemous to say god can't do something, and nevermind that the bible calls some select people perfect (sometimes even after sinning, like king david). seems that god is little more caring and forgiving than the pastors let on.

The bible has a continous concern for the spiritual life as opposed to the physical. God is always concerned about what is truly in your heart. Not what you do in the physical.

oh that's bull and you know it. when jesus came about and walked around saying that god cares what you think about it and what's in your heart, it was a completetly revolutionary idea. the church of the time KILLED him for it.

Spiritual death is a penalty. It is a seperation from God. When God said "...you will die." He meant it as he will punish them.

we're making stuff again. show me spiritual death in genesis. show me that the death is punishment. he doesn't say "eat that fruit, i'll kill you." he says "eat that fruit, you'll really die"

when god punishes adam and eve and the serpent, he does it with curses. not death. and even then, most of them are more like consequences of their actions (becoming aware) than actual punishment.

Now the question of whether or not the serpent lied or not. No he just confused the situation. He said that they would not die(physically) and he was relying on the idea that Adam and Eve did not understand God about it being a spiritual death.

the serpent repeated the words of god, with the word "not" in it. where's this physical confusion? show me any indication that EITHER of them meant anything other than physical death, i bet you can't. god is even sure to indicate that he really means death, as in DEATH death. you can't just make this stuff and pretend that's what the bible says: you're wrong. i've read the story. repeatedly.

And Satan was the serpent in the Garden. He had possessed the serpent.

make up your mind.

the serpent is punished. why didn't the serpent say "satan made me do it?" while everyone else was placing the blame squarely on him? and the serpent is punished by being forced to go about on his stomach and lick the ground. it's etiology of why snakes are what they are. it CAN'T be anything but a snake.

Satan is also referred to as a serpent in Revelation

language problem and mixed metaphors: wrong serpent. see leviathan and tanniyn. there's a bunch of really cool legends there that the story in revelation is clearly drawing on.

however, that doesn't change the fact that there is no indication that leviathan or any of the tanniyn (plural) is satan. satan appears to be angelic entity, a ben'elohym if you will, and not a physical dragon.


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 110 of 381 (186739)
02-19-2005 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by xevolutionist
02-19-2005 1:10 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
xevolutionist writes:

I read a review about an author who proposed in a recent book that this entire creation's purpose was to eliminate evil. I haven't had a chance to read that one yet but it sounds interesting.

That idea was presented to me at seminary, thiry five years ago. But, once again: Shouldn't a Real God get what he wants? Shouldn't he be able to see the end from the beginning? Would he purposely choose to fail?

Had he truly loved people and honored his word of prophecy, there could have been a New Adam the very next day ... the day after "the day in which" Adam ate the fruit. But it doesn't happen that way, does it? Instead, Adam lives to a ripe old age and humanity becomes like gods; just as the serpent predicted.

In response, The LORD God curses the ground (3:17) and later brings a flood to wipe out every living thing, because:

quote:
"... the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (6:5)

Then, after the flood, the LORD God apparently changes his mind. He seems to have learned something. He says,

quote:
"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" (8:21)

HELLO!!! Like he didn't know that before he decided to kill off all the "evil" Bunnies and Bambie's and unborn Babies.
Like he didn't have a clue about human nature.

If this LORD God is Omniscient, then how can he be learning?

Believe it or not X; there is a distinction, discoverable in scripture, between the creator (Spirit) God and the LORD (King) God. Why do you suppose the political adjective (LORD) was required in the first place? Understanding this difference explains a lot of sticky problems. For example: "Moses saw God." versus "No man has ever seen God."

The LORD God's attempt to eliminate evil has failed repeatedly hasn't it? The man creature goes wrong, so he throws it out the Garden. It multiplies, so he tries to drown it. It gets organized so he kills Jesus. (Yeah, that'll show 'em.)

What's next? Well, the fundies tell us he's going to set fire to the place; roast a few weanies.

Yeah, that'll show 'em.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by xevolutionist, posted 02-19-2005 1:10 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 1:02 AM doctrbill has responded
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 111 of 381 (186761)
02-19-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Now, could you please show me justificiation for saying that the serpent is Satan? In the story of Genesis, god cursed the serpent to crawl on his belly forever. Does that sound like Satan. In the book of Job, Satan is walking about the earth. That is not crawling on the belly.

Or do you want to conveniently forget that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by xevolutionist, posted 02-18-2005 11:30 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:08 PM ramoss has responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 112 of 381 (187108)
02-20-2005 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by arachnophilia
02-19-2005 4:03 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
The serpent was satan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by arachnophilia, posted 02-19-2005 4:03 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ramoss, posted 02-21-2005 8:28 AM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 113 of 381 (187114)
02-21-2005 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by arachnophilia
02-19-2005 4:19 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
quote:
good and evil. as in awareness, and the ability to judge between the two. the story is about the origin of moral choice, and conciousness (and human emotion). it explains the tradeoffs for conciousness: a lifetime of work, pain and heartache in raising children, and marital strife.

if you missed that aspect to the store -- well, you missed the point. the point is that there is something of god in us, and we are like god in some way that makes us special, and that it is worth the pain and sacrifice and separation from god's paradise.

whoever told you it's about guilt and death is trying to sell you a religion.


Are you arguing from a deist point of view? I would agree on the first part of that point only. We have the ability to know good from evil, and that is the source of humanity's agonizing self examination. Why am I here? What's the meaning of it all? Why are men so cruel? Why did my bunny die? What happens after death? All the while rejecting God's message of purpose and plan.

Do we understand everything about God? If we did He really wouldn't be much of a God, yet He did give us all we need to know for now. That's just another excuse to reject Him and choose your own morality. You're free to do it.

I don't think anything would be worth permanent separation from God.
Those who have been forgiven don't need guilt. I personally think that's something a lot of Christians don't get.

Death is a reality, at least the physical death. The spiritual life I was speaking of in the previous posts was friendship with God. You're right,The indwelling of the Spirit in the new testament is different, but similar in that it confers many of the same benefits that one might imagine having with GOD as your best buddy. One of them is not fearing death.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by arachnophilia, posted 02-19-2005 4:19 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by arachnophilia, posted 02-22-2005 5:37 AM xevolutionist has responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 114 of 381 (187118)
02-21-2005 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by doctrbill
02-19-2005 10:24 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
quote:
That idea was presented to me at seminary, thiry five years ago. But, once again: Shouldn't a Real God get what he wants? Shouldn't he be able to see the end from the beginning? Would he purposely choose to fail?

Of course He knew the outcome from the beginning, and I'm sure that He will get what He wants. The real question is what will we get.

He may appear to fail to some, if you see generousity as a failure. He gave us the ability to choose between good and evil, and even gave the angels self determination. Perhaps this is the equivilant of tempering steel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by doctrbill, posted 02-19-2005 10:24 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by doctrbill, posted 02-21-2005 9:34 AM xevolutionist has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 115 of 381 (187155)
02-21-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by xevolutionist
02-17-2005 1:35 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
of course, you have to read INTO it concept that the early Hebrews did not have. as an excuse to change the meanings.

But, hey, if you can't put meaning in where it wasn't meant, a lot of Christian belief could not be justified.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by xevolutionist, posted 02-17-2005 1:35 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:56 PM ramoss has not yet responded
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 116 of 381 (187156)
02-21-2005 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by xevolutionist
02-20-2005 11:57 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
That is your claim. Repeating the claim does not make it true.

How about using some scripture from the old testament to justify it?


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 117 of 381 (187177)
02-21-2005 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 1:02 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
xevolutionist writes:

Of course He knew the outcome from the beginning,

There's no "of course" about it.

In the example I shared above, the deity thought his Great Flood would put an end to evil.
It didn't.
He notice that, commented on the fact and changed his plan for future punishments.

There are other stories in scripture which depict this god as one not having a clue.

Churches have successfully edited the Bible in the past, deleting verses, chapters, and entire books from "God's Word." Would you like to see this story on the cutting room floor alongside the so-called 'apocrypha'?

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 1:02 AM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:28 PM doctrbill has responded
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 118 of 381 (187242)
02-21-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ramoss
02-19-2005 11:49 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
How many snakes converse with humans? Satan either spoke through the serpent or took on the appearance of the serpent. Perhaps God cursed the serpent for allowing satan to speak through him, or perhaps "crawl on your belly and eat dust" is symbolic of an angel being cast down to earth from heaven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ramoss, posted 02-19-2005 11:49 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2005 3:33 PM xevolutionist has responded
 Message 132 by arachnophilia, posted 02-22-2005 5:49 AM xevolutionist has responded
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 119 of 381 (187246)
02-21-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by doctrbill
02-21-2005 9:34 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
quote:
When God says that He does not change, He is speaking about His nature and character. But this does not mean that He cannot change how He works with people throughout history.
When we see God changing His mind, we are seeing it from a human perspective. Since God knows all things from all eternity, He as always known the ultimate plan that He would carry out; even the plan to "change His mind." As we have seen in Jonah's account of Nineveh. They repented and God relented from the destruction that was to come upon the inhabitants. Of course, God knew this would happen and instituted the warning to them in order to bring about their repentance. There is no mystery here.
[from Christian Apologetics Research Ministry website] I was struggling with the wording of my thoughts when I found this.

I don't want to change any scripture, even the parts that I don't understand yet. 99.9% of God's word is completely understandable and the few portions that are difficult for me to understand don't present any unsurmountable difficulties.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by doctrbill, posted 02-21-2005 9:34 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by doctrbill, posted 02-21-2005 5:29 PM xevolutionist has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 381 (187248)
02-21-2005 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
How many snakes converse with humans?

Actually that's a pretty common thing in mythology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:08 PM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 4:05 PM crashfrog has responded

  
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