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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5242 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 121 of 381 (187250)
02-21-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ramoss
02-21-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
The early Hebrews didn't understand a lot of things but they didn't try to change them. For instance the "seed of the woman" was not understood. Only men have "seed", but they didn't change that portion of scripture just because they didn't know what God meant. Christians know now that He was referring to the virgin birth.

As I said previously, I would look upon loss of friendship with God as a spiritual death. Many people agree with you that it is physical death. If it is, what's a thousand years compared with eternity? That would seem pretty much immediate to someone comparing the two time periods. Isn't everything relative? On that day, Adam's death became a certainty, even if He didn't drop dead on the spot.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5242 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 122 of 381 (187252)
02-21-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by crashfrog
02-21-2005 3:33 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
In mythology yes, but not in real life. I didn't know you were following this. Bored?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2005 3:33 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2005 4:14 PM xevolutionist has responded

  
Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 381 (187255)
02-21-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by johnfolton
01-08-2005 8:50 PM


Go Tom!
Cool answ to the debate on Adam dieing on "The Day". Only God knows if its the right one though. There are many places in the NT where it talks about Death reighning in the children of darkness. And Death reining from the time of Adam (the First). Through our bonds with the First Adam we are all dead. Thus speaking of a spiritual death? ;)

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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 381 (187256)
02-21-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 4:05 PM


In mythology yes, but not in real life.

"In real life"? I'm sorry, I don't understand. Of course snakes don't talk to people in real life.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by xevolutionist, posted 02-23-2005 12:55 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 381 (187257)
02-21-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
02-05-2005 2:43 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
god is being decietful and tricky (and petty and jealous), yes, but he's not lying. you can decieve with the truth

This must be the whorst reply I've read thus far. To be decietful is to make someone else belive something that is not true. If your telling white lies, halve truths or any other bended line, you end up with a curve. God does not lie. end point and full stop. If you belive that, say it. End.


This message is a reply to:
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Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 381 (187265)
02-21-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by doctrbill
02-21-2005 9:34 AM


Dear Dr Bill
Q1: R u a real doc.?
Q2: ? did u leave semanary (Sorry no email available 4 u, If u dont want to answ this on the board use my email.)
Q3: Do you think yourself 2b clever, rev.2 your arguments? (be careful about your answer.)
Q4: Since God made the univese, do you think we may trust Him to do that, which works to the greater good?
Q5: If you knew all there is to know about God, would He still be God? (Who would then have the claim to infenate wisdom?

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1083 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 127 of 381 (187272)
02-21-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
You really haven't addressed the issue I put forward.

xevolutionist writes:

... even the plan to "change His mind." As we have seen in Jonah's account of Nineveh.

The Jonah story isn't about God changing his mind. It's about Ninevah changing its fate by cooperating with God.

In the Flood story, God changes his plan because his plan has failed. He has learned something (good for him) and from now on he'll do things differently (he says). How about you comment on this?

I don't want to change any scripture, even the parts that I don't understand yet.

If you ignore it, then you won't need to change it.

99.9% of God's word is completely understandable

Less than 90% of what the Apostles called "Bible" is still considered "holy" by the Christian community. The rest has been purged from your Bible (highy likely if you are Protestant). That culling was done by men. One might call them Holy Men. One might say their edit was 'inspired.' But no one can demonstrate that God or any of the Apostles approved their hatchet job.

and the few portions that are difficult for me to understand don't present any unsurmountable difficulties.

Then please surmount the difficult point I raised.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:28 PM xevolutionist has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 128 of 381 (187423)
02-22-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Derrick
02-21-2005 4:28 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
god is being decietful and tricky (and petty and jealous), yes, but he's not lying. you can decieve with the truth

This must be the whorst reply I've read thus far.

why thank you!

To be decietful is to make someone else belive something that is not true.

yes, and you CAN do that with the truth. you can even do it without "white lies and half truths." you can do with selective reporting of the facts. politicians do this all the time. how is this hard to understand?

If your telling white lies, halve truths or any other bended line, you end up with a curve. God does not lie. end point and full stop. If you belive that, say it. End.

but the god of the bible DOES lie. not a matter of belief, it's a matter of reading the text. i just think the whole prophet-from-another-religion is a weak example, since the point is that the prophet is right in his prophesy.

seriously, this isn't that hard to get folks. can we move on now?


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 129 of 381 (187425)
02-22-2005 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 3:56 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
The early Hebrews didn't understand a lot of things but they didn't try to change them.

there's no evidence of blatant anachronisms in the text. that's one of the points of validity of the (ot) bible: we can date it to before about 200 bc using only textual methods.

if it was filled with anachronisms, like the book of mormon, we'd think it was written recently, like the book of mormon.

For instance the "seed of the woman" was not understood

it means child. i can find you a half dozen references that clearly use the idea to imply NON virgin birth. why would the genesis one be any different than say eli and elkanah's child?

you know why? becuase people are reading stuff into it. you don't think the authors of the new testament, and of revelation in particular, DIDN'T have a copy of genesis, do you?

if i read "macbeth" and then go and kill my boss so i can get promoted in his stead, was macbeth prophetic of what i did? did shakespeare not understand the concept of me killing my boss? think about it.

this is the pre-hoc-propter-hoc fallacy, and you're guilty of it just as much as eddy penngelly.

As I said previously, I would look upon loss of friendship with God as a spiritual death.

you know, that's funny. god doesn't just disappear from the bible after genesis 3, does he? he doesn't even start to slow down until after moses. god's all over the bible. what exactly DID change in genesis 3?

they got kicked out of the garden and had to work for themselves. they were gonna die anyways, and we're no more separate from god because of it. to say anything else is to be in complete contradiction to the text. stop making stuff up.

Many people agree with you that it is physical death. If it is, what's a thousand years compared with eternity? That would seem pretty much immediate to someone comparing the two time periods.

oh, now god is stupid? i would rather he be a liar than stupid. he told adam that adam would die that same day. i think he put it in adam's terms, don't you?

Isn't everything relative? On that day, Adam's death became a certainty, even if He didn't drop dead on the spot.

no, you're reading it wrong.

god says he'll die that day.

god says when he kicks them out that the only way adam is going to live forever is if he eats from the tree of life. which means that he hadn't already, which means that ADAM WAS ALWAYS MORTAL. the story is not about a loss of immortality.

it's about the origin of a people, and the reasons why:
men work/farm in a desert
women have a painful childbirth and parenting process
snakes slither/smell with their tongues.

it is also about the origin of conciousness, and the responsibility that ensues (ie: the basis for mosaic law). the tree is called "knowledge of good and evil." think about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:56 PM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Derrick, posted 02-22-2005 4:03 PM arachnophilia has responded
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 130 of 381 (187427)
02-22-2005 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 12:42 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Are you arguing from a deist point of view?

no, i'm arguing from the "i've read the story" point of view. i've read it several times in fact. i've read a ton of stuff about it. i've read alot of the rest of the bible too, so i know some context.

and simply put, you're wrong. the story you're thinking of paradise lost, by milton. not genesis 2-3.

Those who have been forgiven don't need guilt. I personally think that's something a lot of Christians don't get.

quite. but think about it for a second. if the story is about permament guilt and original sin for all my kind, how are some men in the bible called perfect? good old job -- the story hinges on the fact that he hasn't sinned, and is perfect in every way.

Death is a reality, at least the physical death.

why? i'll put in standard christian terms. when we die, we go to god, right? and now we're separated from god. if you truly believe... well, why isn't christianity a suicide cult? they completely invalidate this life, saying it's all preparation, a test to get into the next.

what stops people? fear, probably.

i don't think death is a punishment. i don't think it's a reward. i just think life can only be meanigful for so long, and part of it is that i must end. there has always been death, even in the garden of eden. life doesn't work without it.

The spiritual life I was speaking of in the previous posts was friendship with God.

what of abraham? god liked him a lot. walked around with him, told him stuff. he seemed to like moses even more. he told moses... well a couple books worth, right?

separation from god? have you even read the bible at all?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 131 of 381 (187428)
02-22-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ramoss
02-21-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
But, hey, if you can't put meaning in where it wasn't meant, a lot of Christian belief could not be justified.

i've read enough of the old testament, and learned enough about it, that i had a minor crisis of faith a little while ago: i could no longer justify my christianity.

and i still can't. i haven't worked it out yet.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 132 of 381 (187430)
02-22-2005 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by xevolutionist
02-21-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
How many snakes converse with humans?

how many walking sticks turn into snakes when you drop them? how many fiery winged serpents have you been bitten by lately?

Satan either spoke through the serpent or took on the appearance of the serpent

why satan? why not azazel? by not ba'al? why not beelzebub? why not asherah? why not gabriel or michael?

i'll tell you why you THINK it's satan. because you think it's a test. maybe you haven't made this connection conciously, but that's how the idea came about.

originally, hasatan was a son of god (or "other god" if you will). as a lesser to yahweh, he served only yahweh's wishes. and his duty, as defined by his name, was the test men. he name means "adversary" but in respect to the adversary of man, not god.

hasatan was thought up around the time of the writing of chronicles (his first appearance) to do god's dirty work. instead of god provoking david to sin, satan does it. the hebrews at the time were uncomfortable with saying that god would make men do bad things, and that god would lie. so they made up an angel to do it instead.

over time, he was given more and more power until he became the adversary of god, and a fallen angel. but the story doesn't line up. if satan is fallen, banished to hell, how is he in the garden? how does he control and tempt men?

your giving more power to something that should be powerless, and then using him to blow a miniscule animal out of proportion. the story says "snake." and it means "snake." the snake is not punished for being possessed. he's punished for being sneaky.

does it say "and satan was the most subtle of god's angels?" no, it doesn't. it's not satan, it's a snake. like the story says. if you tell me different, you have to show me proof that satan slithers and smells with his tongue.

perhaps "crawl on your belly and eat dust" is symbolic of an angel being cast down to earth from heaven.

the writers of the bible LOVE to write about powerful kings being overthrown by the might of god. if they wanted the write that story, they would have.

it contains a similar theme, but not as dramatic. and that's why christians have read into it. but that's not what it says: it explains why snakes are snakes. satan is not a snake. qed, it's not satan.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by xevolutionist, posted 02-21-2005 3:08 PM xevolutionist has responded

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Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 381 (187523)
02-22-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by arachnophilia
02-22-2005 5:08 AM


Question : Who are you?
yes, and you CAN do that with the truth. you can even do it without "white lies and half truths." you can do with selective reporting of the facts. politicians do this all the time. how is this hard to understand?

The truth does not only consist of facts. It also rests on motive and interpritation. Whith what motive was the facts presented and how was it interpreted. There is and example of this in the passage of the temptation of Christ.
PS Are you just playing Devils Advocate or whats your belief?


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Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 381 (187530)
02-22-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by doctrbill
02-18-2005 6:00 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned ..." Romans 5:17 KJV
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this talking about 'spiritual death'? I don't think so. Were all those sinless people 'spiritually dead'? That doesn't seem reasonable either.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Bill, Please do me and every one else a emence favour and quote the entire verse. Better jet, read the passage. It states that The rest did not sin as Adam did. i.e. they did other sins. If you read this passage you sould be able to desern that Death is punnishment for disobediace to God and that it reighned from "Adam"


This message is a reply to:
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Derrick
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 381 (187542)
02-22-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by arachnophilia
02-22-2005 5:26 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
For instance the "seed of the woman" was not understood

it means child. i can find you a half dozen references that clearly use the idea to imply NON virgin birth. why would the genesis one be any different than say eli and elkanah's child?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You said you can find 6. Please find 2 that actually talk about the seed of a "woman", that also refers to virgin birth (Mary and JC i.e. gosples excluded)

*********************************************************************
if i read "macbeth" and then go and kill my boss so i can get promoted in his stead, was macbeth prophetic of what i did? did shakespeare not understand the concept of me killing my boss? think about it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Whatever your smoking, I want two! what does Mac have to do with it?

*********************************************************************
you know, that's funny. god doesn't just disappear from the bible after genesis 3, does he? he doesn't even start to slow down until after moses. god's all over the bible. what exactly DID change in genesis 3?
they got kicked out of the garden and had to work for themselves. they were gonna die anyways, and we're no more separate from god because of it. to say anything else is to be in complete contradiction to the text. stop making stuff up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you actually READ Gen or are you working on hearsay? Before the fall they walke with God, talked with Him as friends, being Naked infront of Him (intemacy if you will) did not even botter them.
After the fall, all that's gone.
Let me colour it a bit more, your married, you cheet on your spouce. He/she walks in. You and you friend go for clothes. What just happend to your, marrage and relationship? Why are you suddenly scared to be naked infront of your spouce? Is your sp. going to be arround very much longer?
*********************************************************************
Many people agree with you that it is physical death. If it is, what's a thousand years compared with eternity? That would seem pretty much immediate to someone comparing the two time periods.
---------------------

oh, now god is stupid? i would rather he be a liar than stupid. he told adam that adam would die that same day. i think he put it in adam's terms, don't you?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel me again, how does above mentioned statemet make God stupid. The writer is stating a possibility that God might have mesuring a day diffrently than we do. Adam, living closely with God at that time would have known exatly what God ment, don't you think?
*********************************************************************

the story is not about a loss of immortality.

it's about the origin of a people, and the reasons why:
men work/farm in a desert
women have a painful childbirth and parenting process
snakes slither/smell with their tongues.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
True ,not about Loss of immortality and it is about the origen of man. i.e. God. Your focus is out of place. If your focus was on target, Lions would be mowing your lawn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by arachnophilia, posted 02-22-2005 5:26 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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