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Author Topic:   Did congress make a law? (Establishment Clause)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 103 (188582)
02-25-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by gnojek
02-25-2005 6:21 PM


Is there something I'm missing here?
Yup. Article VI Clause 2
quote:
Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Thank GOD the founders were smart enough to have considered that the states might do something as stupid as try to establish a state religion.
This message has been edited by jar, 02-25-2005 17:52 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by gnojek, posted 02-25-2005 6:21 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 103 (188614)
02-25-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by gnojek
02-25-2005 9:09 PM


What it does say is that a State cannot pass any laws that are in conflict with the Constitution, Federal Laws or Treaties. The 14th. extended that protection to include State Legislatures under the Equal Protection Amendment.
Amendment 14: Section 1
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Fortunately, those two along with the decisions of SCOTUS such as:
LEMON v. KURTZMAN, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), LEE v. WEISMAN, 505 U.S. 577 (1992), ALLEGHENY COUNTY v. GREATER PITTSBURGH ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989) and Engel v. Vitale have upheld and strengthed that position.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 17 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 6:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 103 (188997)
02-27-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by gnojek
02-27-2005 6:04 PM


I see you did not address the 14th. Amendment. Any particular reason you're ignoring it?
Right, and the La. law was not in conflict because the La. legislature is not Congress.
Doesn't matter. The 14th. Amendment made it quite clear that State Courts or Legislatures could not discriminate against its citizens.
No, it says "Congress shall make no law..."
That's the 1st.. Fortunately, there is also the 14th. to protect us from acts like the La. Law.
So the rulings from SCOTUS were simply upholding the Constitution.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 6:04 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 7:26 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 103 (189012)
02-27-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by gnojek
02-27-2005 7:26 PM


There is no law restricting the La. legislature from forcing schools to teach creationism so there is no protection to be equally distributed.
Teaching Creationism is discriminatory by definition. It discriminates against every non-Christian and also most Christians.
And that doesn't matter, because discrimination has nothing to do with teaching creationism in public schools, unless teaching evolution is also discrimination somehow.
Nonsense. There is at least a vast body of evidence in support of the TOE and Evolution itself is a fact. Teaching Creationism though presupposes that there is a GOD. It's pretty obvious that the GOD is the Raven but still, it's discriminatory to teach kids that humans exist only because witelin Tsta mated with poyan T'Chu.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 7:26 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by gnojek, posted 03-01-2005 7:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 103 (189540)
03-01-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by gnojek
03-01-2005 7:02 PM


It had nothing to do with the 14th Ammendment either, which is also not violated by merely teaching inaccurate lessons in school.
If it teaches that the Judeo/Christian/Muslim GOD created the world, then it most certainly does come under the 14th. Amendment. That would be discriminatory as well as a severe disservice to the students. If you want to cover that in some Social Studies course then fine, but not in Science.
Teaching one, two, or three of the numerous versions of "biological theory" is limiting the scope of the lesson, discriminating (in the general sense) between the two versions.
The issue seems pretty clear and so far the courts have always found it to be very clear. Coming into a classroom in a public school and teaching kids any of the Creation Myths as though they were science is discriminatory. That happens to be the Law of the Land. Thank GOD!
You can have any interpretation you want but again, so far EVERY court has said that Dog won't Humt!
Should we teach multiple revisionist versions of the history of the American Revolution because teaching that George Washington was a great man discriminates against current members of the Native American nations that he decimated?
Well, he was a great man but that has nothing to do with teaching history. Hell, Yes! It's about time that we started teaching history and not fairytales. But actually, it was Jefferson and Jackson that were the greatest threat to the Indians. Required reading in every middleschool US History class should include Cherokee Nation vs State of Georgia.
A lot of what we learn in school is plain wrong, especially when it comes to history.
Absolutely true. So why teach yet another lie? Let's try to start teaching kids the truth. Don't add yet another layer of mythology between the kids and reality.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by gnojek, posted 03-01-2005 7:02 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by gnojek, posted 03-01-2005 7:50 PM jar has replied
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-07-2005 11:50 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 103 (189640)
03-02-2005 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by gnojek
03-01-2005 7:50 PM


Re: Argh, I have to get back to work!!
Well, it doesn't really violate the 14th simply because it doesn't violate the 1st.
IMHO, it would likely violate the 14th. without even considering the 1st.. If we teach that one religion has the correct idea in our public schools we are not providing equal protection to all citizens. We would be discriminating and that would violate the 14th. irregardless of the existence of the 1st..
But anyway, nothing says that a school has to divide up it's classes into distinct subjects, and in elementary school it's not, so what if the creation story were just taught in "class."
They don't divide up the day into subjects in elementary school anymore? Bummer. I know they did way back when I was there and when my daughter was there. They had a time to do arithmetic, geography, reading, spelling, history, singing and even play time. We all called it recess.
If your opinion is Yes, then I can find ten more people who would say No, and also say that teaching evolution is a disservice, so that one is just a matter of subjective opinion.
True but that has nothing to do with the issue. We're not talking public opinion but rather Law.
As for the rest, what is taught as history is a great subject but OT for this thread. Start a thread on what should be taught as history and we can discuss it there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by gnojek, posted 03-01-2005 7:50 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by MangyTiger, posted 03-03-2005 8:03 PM jar has replied
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 03-07-2005 3:15 AM jar has replied
 Message 60 by gnojek, posted 03-30-2005 1:00 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 103 (189922)
03-03-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by MangyTiger
03-03-2005 8:03 PM


Re: Argh, I have to get back to work!!
A lovely young lady from England moved in on the floor above me when I was still a young single guy. First thing she said was "You'll have to knock me up sometime." Imagine my disappointment when I found out that was the equivalent of "Call me someday."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by MangyTiger, posted 03-03-2005 8:03 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 103 (190455)
03-07-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rrhain
03-07-2005 3:15 AM


Re: Oh, no...jar...you didn't!
Yup I did. When I'm speaking in casual conversation I often pay no nevermind to grammar and spelling. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way or phrase a thought within rigid bounds is severly handicapped.
Misuse and creativity is how a language grows.
This message has been edited by jar, 03-07-2005 10:10 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 03-07-2005 3:15 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 103 (190470)
03-07-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-07-2005 11:50 AM


At least we should teach the kids all viewpoints and the basis behind them.
When it comes to moral systems (not a science subject but very important) I think we need to do a better job of exposing kids to source material. But that means teaching everything from the Greek Philosophers to Eastern Metaphysics to modern philosophers. The parents in the home can emphasize their own particular choice but in the public school setting Taoism and Christianity must receive equal emphasis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-07-2005 11:50 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 103 (199681)
04-15-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by gnojek
04-15-2005 2:52 PM


Try this.
Forget the first amedment. Pretend it's not even there.
Can we start with that.
Now a State tries to establish a religion.
Whoops, that violates the 14th. Amendment. It has nothing to do with the First, it is passing laws that discriminate against certain segments of the population. You can't make blacks sit in the back of the buss and you can't have a State Religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by gnojek, posted 04-15-2005 2:52 PM gnojek has not replied

  
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