Old Earth Creationism

As I know it, four prominent OEC's are:1) Hugh Ross (Reasons to Believe) - Commonly identified as a progressive creationist.
2) Phillip Johnson - Commonly identified as an intelligent design advocate.As I see it, both of the above are progressive creationists and intellegent design advocates.3) Michael Behe - Commonly identified as an intelligent design advocate (which he is, in the context of being a theistic evolutionist).
4) Kurt Wise - (Position uncertain to me, at this time).My impression is, that one with a YEC perspective, is subject to coming down on a "progressive creationist" with perhaps even greater wrath, than that which would be inflicted on an "evolutionist".My case and point for this is AIG's Ken Ham's "Expos" of Hugh Ross, as found at:
Special Feature: Hugh Ross Expos | Answers in Genesis Cheers,
Moose------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 09-30-2002]

minnemooseus,I am not familiar with the differences of the OEC and YEC. Is there some concise definition? What are some good resources to see what they think happened?Would appreciate any reply. Thanks.------------------
Anne C. McGuire
Cell and Molecular, Mathematics, Piano and Vocal Performance Majors
Chemistry and Physics minors
Thanks and have a nice day

As I understand it, a YEC believes the earth to be 5000 to 10,000 years old. Some YEC's seem to be open to extending this to c. 20,000 years.An OEC believes the earth is older than that of the YEC. I imagine this could range from 5000 years up to 4.6 billion years. I think all of the cited in message 1, have no problems with the mainstream science full 4.6 billion years. I may be wrong - My current knowlege on Hugh Ross's and Kurt Wise's positions is pretty vague - Something to be explored further in this topic.Moose

As I see it, the distinction between an old earth progressive creationist and a mainstream evolutionist can be a very fuzzy thing.Essentially, it all boils down to a "God in the details" thing.Phillip Johnson is an advocated of there havings been a vast number of special creations and extinctions, which mimics evolution but isn't evolution.The analogy I think of at the moment is:What is your relationship to your parents? Are you a purely evolutionary decendent? Or are you a special creation, designed by God to be geneticly much like your parents? Or could both be true?Moose[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 09-30-2002]

Maybe I should try to classify the creationists on board into some of those categories: (regulars only)Tranquility Base: IC/Progressive Creationist
Peter Borger: IDist?
Wordswordman: OEC?
blitz77: OEC?
TrueCreation: YEC?Awaiting confirmations...

Thanks,That helps in knowing where they come from.Not a whole lot of creationists are there?------------------
Anne C. McGuire
Cell and Molecular, Mathematics, Piano and Vocal Performance Majors
Chemistry and Physics minors
Thanks and have a nice day

--Tranquility Base is, I am quite sure of, a YEC, I am also a YEC for your confirmation.
--And acmhttu001_2006, no there aren't many YEC's, thanx to the widely spread thoughts of Kent Hovind and ilk.------------------[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 10-02-2002]

I am an OEC an proud of it. I work in petroleum geology and can tell you that the earth is older than YEC's believe. YEC's believe that the earth is about 6,000 years old. I am of the progressive creation group that believe in an old earth 4.5 billion years old give or take a few and that God specialy created life in series over the last 3.5 billion years. If you want to know more about Inteligent Design go toHome - Reasons to BelieveThat is Dr Hugh Ross's website.Your brother in Christ
Lcash

I'm pretty sure Kurt Wise is strongly YEC based solely on faith, and he freely admits that evidence for his belief is lacking (that's why its called faith).

Moose, Kurt Wise is very definitely a YEC.

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My impression is, that one with a YEC perspective, is subject to coming down on a "progressive creationist" with perhaps even greater wrath, than that which would be inflicted on an "evolutionist".

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I think there are a couple of reasons why YECs hate outspoken Old Earth Creationists so much. Firstly, there is the traitor factor. YECs view OEC as having had the opportunity to know the real truth but have turned their back on the literal infalliblility of the bible.Secondly, YECs hate OEC because they are a strong competitor in the marketplace of religion and philosophy. The vast majority of christians are convince by the evidence that the world is billions, not 10,000 years old. However they don't want to take the big step and deny the necessity of a god. So OEC is a comfortable site on the spectrum where you can have your god and not have to deny the sciences of astronomy, cosmology, geology etc. And isn't this where most defectors from YEC end up?OECs come in many flavours when it comes to deciding how interventionist their god is. It can be the distant lawgiver model where their god sets up the rules to play by, pushes the start button and stands back to watch what happens. Or it can be the gently guiding god who plays by his own rules, uses mechanisms like mutation and evolution to gently guide in accordance with his plan. Or it can be the god of the gaps who acts in mysterious ways and in those areas where science can't explain by naturalistic materialistic mechanisms.You'll notice that Intelligent Designists tend to be coy about issues such as the age of the earth. They are trying to unite as many disperate creationist followers under their banner as possible. And YECs are keen to borrow ID arguments, even if they are based on assumptions of an old earth and old life.Scratch the surface of any sort of creationist and you will expose inconsistencies and anomolies. One could pray that they will turn their backs completely on science and adopt biblical cures for disease, cancer, diabetes etc. But I suspect their faith isn't THAT strong.Talk Origins do a nice summary of the spectrum of beliefs at What is creationism?

A lot of them hate us Christian evolutionists as well. We're the real compromisers!I have the impression that OEC is on the ascendancy at the moment - seem to come across more of them. Probably because the YE arguments are easier to demonstrate as rubbish; the anti-evolution arguments are more subtle and more difficult to rebutt to the layman's satisfaction.

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A lot of them hate us Christian evolutionists as well. We're the real compromisers!

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Ain't that a fact! Usns are just gods-cursed demon-spawn virgin-sacrificing devil-worshipping atheists - IOW, possibly savable. Ya'all are actual heretics and are sure to burn...[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 11-15-2002]

Quite right. As ol' Fred said to me: "you're a particularly hard nut to crack, because you think you're already saved"...

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What is your relationship to your parents? Are you a purely evolutionary decendent? Or are you a special creation, designed by God to be geneticly much like your parents? Or could both be true?

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Both could be true in principle, but it could also be true the the universe was created 15 minutes ago with all of our memories intact.The first is science, the second, a philosophical view of how the world works.

"I am an OEC an proud of it. I work in petroleum geology and can tell you that the earth is older than YEC's believe. YEC's believe that the earth is about 6,000 years old. I am of the progressive creation group that believe in an old earth 4.5 billion years old give or take a few and that God specialy created life in series over the last 3.5 billion years."
--Welcome Lcash, I hope you stick around, I myself am quite a young and vernal scientist at heart though my interest in the geosciences is great in me. I am a YEC and hope we lock horns with you some time regarding a specific geologic topic of interest.------------------