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Author Topic:   Did congress make a law? (Establishment Clause)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 13 of 103 (188854)
02-27-2005 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
02-26-2005 12:04 PM


The Bill of Rights isn't just a description of what the government can't do. It's an open-ended list of what rights we, as citizens of the United States, have that cannot be abridged.
Now add... in theory. I wish it was true in practice but we do have congressional ministers, "under God" placed in the pledge of allegiance, and the ability of Congress to alter free speech rights based purely on moral concerns.
This last point I made in a recent thread which has gone almost completely unnoticed. In 1998 the Congress proved it has the ability to censor, and at least one major organization has been pressed into censoring, scientific literature in order that all scientific results fit popular moral views and political policy.
This is a done deal, and with the gov't completely able to alter science (repress free speech) to reinforce policy, there is no stopping them from riding over any and all other rights. And that is at the national level. Now states can use this precedent to easily dismiss evolution and accept ID theory.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 02-26-2005 12:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 02-27-2005 12:07 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 21 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 6:49 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 28 of 103 (189113)
02-28-2005 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by gnojek
02-27-2005 6:49 PM


It was merely a suggestion on how to clear up psych jargon and not to lump cases together that don't belong together. I think certain people took it to mean that they themselves should change the way they view the world.
While this is true, it was going to have an effect on those that thought they based their moral and legal classifications on "harm". Many people wanted to pretend that they did just that, and certainly the Congress wanted to have a legal argument that their policies were based on actually protecting people from harm, and so this paper did have an effect, even if they were mainly concerned with how Psychology should treat that issue.
If you want to talk more about that case, you can go to the thread. I didn't want to get into the actual specifics of it here, just point out that it is an example of Congress defying the Constitution's theoretical limitations on their power.
The reason I say that this is apples and oranges is that here Congress IS involved. They may make a law, or they may not. If they make a law that restricts free speech, and especially scientific findings, then it would be unconstitutional.
Please read my thread for further info. They did not pass a law, but instead passed a resolution stating that the gov't should reject any findings such as these. That has the indirect effect of "banning" the speech before lawmaking bodies, and thus is as good as killing it outright.
But that was not as significant as what else went on around it. Without passing any laws, and before the resolution was passed, the Congress put political pressure (one can only assume that would include monetary blackmail) on the APA to change its position and reject the study. That was direct coercion which resulted in the APA stating in the future it would make sure science matched public policy before printing. If that is not a chilling effect on free speech through Congressional funding mechanisms, I am unsure what one would consider it.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by gnojek, posted 02-27-2005 6:49 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by gnojek, posted 03-01-2005 7:29 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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